February 2005
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March 4, 2005 Dear Family and Friends, The big news from last month is that I am now with a new ministry: Utah Partnerships for Christ (UPFC). To make a long story short, I became a tax liability for Parousia, and they wanted to help me form my own ministry. When I first started with Parousia 2 years ago, it was always understood that this was to be a temporary arrangement. The tax lawyer, who was a consultant for Parousia, told me that I only had until March 1st to remain with Parousia. But my director, Kelly Neyland, later told me that was only suggested to the board and never agreed upon. Anyway, I had to scramble to get my own ministry set up, since I was leaving for Texas about a week later and would stay there until the end of the month. The very next day after I received the news from the tax lawyer, I called my friend Russ East who runs UPFC to see if he would help me in getting the ministry set up. He asked if I'd rather work with him, and I told him that I'd very much rather work with him. There are 2 primary reasons for this: 1) Russ runs a great ministry that last year had 14 different short-term mission teams work with him, and 2) there are too many headaches involved in setting up and running a ministry (especially while I'm trying to finish this Ph.D.). Russ said he'd talk to his board, and the next day I got an e-mail from him telling me that they had accepted me. I will be on a 90 day trial basis, and then again for the first year. I first worked with Russ in 1993 when we got the Biola University Utah team going. I've worked with him to preach the gospel in Manti, UT (cf. a picture of this and his ex-Mormon testimony). I enjoy Russ as a person, and think that his giftings will complement mine and mine his. Russ is more bent toward relational ministry and I am obviously more bent toward confrontational ministry, but we both engage in both ministries. I am in full support of UPFC, and thank God for a balanced ministry that exposes outsiders to various ministry opportunities within UT. My former director, Kelly, sent along the following e-mail to explain my transition more fully:
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Rob with Billy (Christian student visiting from Florida)
The LDS missionaries advertising my web site (in my apartment)!
Rob in front of the Dallas Temple
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I really love Kelly and his wife Rocky, and am really thankful to the Parousia board for keeping me around as long as they did... especially given that our ministries are quite different (they run a Christian conference retreat 4 times a year). There are no hard feelings between us; it was simply time for me to move on.As for other ministry news, I met with the LDS missionaries for 3 more times. Remember Elder Smith from last month's newsletter? He's the one who said a couple times, "You're right; what we're believing in is false." Well I was disappointed to find out at the next meeting that he had been transferred. For each subsequent time, Elder Reese remained, but I got to meet and witness to a different companion each week. They wanted to make sure that I was open to converting to Mormonism or they'd feel they were wasting their time. So I told them quite honestly that I'm totally open to whatever God has for me even though I've read the Book of Mormon and the rest of the LDS scriptures, prayed about them, and I know God told me that they were false. I told the missionaries that I had some serious problems with Mormonism that would keep me from converting. But I told them I could be mistaken, since we're only human after all. So they kept coming back to finish viewing the Ravi Zacharias speech in the Tabernacle from last November. When we did finally finish viewing the DVD, we talked about 3 big problems I had with Joseph Smith (1. The Book of Abraham, 2. The Kinderhook plates, and 3. Smith's translation of the Bible) for about an hour and a half. They were "supposed" to get back with me when they had answers to these problems, so that they could get a new set of problems to work on. At the end of the meeting, they wanted me to get a picture of them and my signs with their camera (all my signs and many of my tracts were sitting right in front of them). I also ended up taking one of them myself.
I got a call last month from an LDS guy who wanted to make sure I got the LDS video I ordered back in January while I was visiting the San Diego Mormon Battalion Center. He was excited to hear that I was meeting with the missionaries. But he was quite disturbed and no longer wanted to talk with me when I told him that I've got good reasons to believe Joseph Smith was proven to be a false prophet. I gave him the 3 problems above, and he really didn't have much to say except that he hoped the missionaries could answer my questions. As for Smith's translation of the Bible, specifically the Romans 4:5 passage where he contradicted every known translation and Greek manuscript when he said that God "justifieth not the ungodly" (emphasis added), this LDS guy said, "How could God justify the ungodly?" Unfortunately, this is the typical LDS mindset. They've been drilled into their heads that they've got to be "worthy" before God will accept them into His presence.
I also spent an afternoon last month ministering around the Dallas, Texas Temple. My dad wanted me to tag along with him and my mom on my dad's business trip. I had a wonderful time visiting family and friends (including a get-together with Christians who come up to Manti, UT to minister every year at the pageant). The temple in Dallas didn't have much action (even though I did get to briefly talk to 2 LDS ground workers) due to the fact that it was closed to patrons on Mondays--the day that I went--and it was hidden in a local neighborhood on a residential street. Not long after I got there, one guy on a lawn mower drove out from inside, cut a strip of lawn that blew grass all over me, stopped to turn the sprinklers on, and then went back inside to finish mowing! Fortunately I was able to work around them. After a while I went around the neighborhood, and stuck my The Seven Differences between Mormonism and Christianity on the doors. At the end of my time, I spent an hour down the street at a busy intersection advertising the web sites.
Now the people in Dallas are quite unlike the people in Utah. No one of the former gave me the middle finger like I get about 20 times a day from the latter! Nonetheless, I did have a situation that was reminiscent of being hassled by the Temple Square security guards. On the busy street corner, I was standing in front of an aerobics center. Some guy in a white shirt and tie drove behind me and asked me to come over. As I was talking to him, I noticed a security guard had come out. The guy in the white shirt and tie said that I should not be there since I was making it look like I was tied in with the aerobics center. I told him that many people think that I'm Mormon when I'm standing in front of the Mormon temple, but in fact I was a Christian who tries to get a message out on public property. He said that he wished I'd go somewhere else. I told him, "I know, but I'm only here for another half hour and then I'm taking a plane back home." With that, I went back to where I was on the sidewalk, and had no further problems.
Finally, there have been some additions to the web site. Underneath the "News & Info" page are two subfolders for "Discussion/Events". There are also new film reviews on The Sons of Provo, The God Makers, The Temple of the God Makers, Our Heavenly Father's Plan, and The Mormon Puzzle (by Jordan Barrett).
Free,
R.M.S.
Rob@Mormon Info.org
Mormon Info
****PRAYER LIST****
"Prayer is the life of missions. Continual and believing prayer is the secret of the life-giving power and fruitfulness of mission work. The God of missions is the God of prayer" (Andrew Murray, The Kingdom of God in South Africa).
- For more salvations
- For those that are coming out of the LDS Church and/or those who have recently committed themselves to the real Christ
- For God to move more people to do street ministry downtown
- For Utah churches and individual Christians to support each other's various ministries
- For financial provision
- For the ability to get my rough draft comprehensive done soon
- For God to use my web site
- For love, protection, and wisdom as I minister
- For my new relationship with UPFC
****MAILBAG****
Dear Rob, a friend of mine met you at temple square...he took the mormoninfo newspaper...which i read! i am not a mormon, and it was interesting what's written there. I compared the sources and so far everything you told is true! But one thing, which really bathers me is the fact that you proof things according the bible. "Mormon says this but the bible says that, therefore the mormon are wrong!" This is absolutely a wrong way to proof stuff... you can not assume that your religion is right and conclude that therefore the other is not!!!
And i think, it is more than inrespectful having signs in Temple Square which tells people that their Prophet is a liar. If you wanna discuss an issue, then on the best way you can... [but stop] insulting other people (which you do, if you insult the person... [concerning] their religion). Think about it in this way...if you insult other religions they gonna insult your religion...and for me this is like you insult your own religion! Does that make sense?
What i would love to hear is the proof that your bible is right (by the way, one bible among thousand different nowadays!!!). And if you gonna proof it, in a way that a nonbeliefer can think about it...so don't tell me...i saw signs or i heard voices...or i know it is right...proof it...you were encouraged enough to proof that the mormon religion is wrong...be encouraged enough to proof that your religion is right!!!
Thanks and i am looking for an answer from you... sorry my english is not the best, but i think you do understand what i mean.
[I responded:] Thanks a lot for writing. I'm assuming that you're referring to "The Temple Square Visitor's Guide" when you say "the mormoninfo newspaper". If so, the paper simply doesn't argue against Mormonism by using the Bible. It argues against Mormonism by the racism that has been stated by their prophets and scripture, the historical anomalies in the Book of Mormon, the non-existence of its archeology to back it up, its plagiarization of the King James Version, the occultic way the BM was translated, etc.
Now as far as using the Bible to prove that Mormonism is false, I don't know why I would believe that it's the wrong way to do things when I've seen many people leave Mormonism and become Christians because of it. For example, please read Bob Rea's testimony.
Of course I am assuming the Bible is true and is the word of God, but that should be rather uncontroversial with Mormons (my primary target audience) since their 8th Article of Faith agrees with my assumption. They also have TV commercials that invite viewers to receive a free Bible from them. So if the Bible is the word of God, then Mormons should listen to what it teaches. I'm just asking for them to be consistent.
But of course when I deal with sceptics who doubt that the Bible is trustworthy and the word of God, then I have to make a case for this. I am prepared to do this with you if you're interested, but first I would like you to read "Can The Bible Be Trusted?".
As for the way I believe I should conduct my ministry, I'd like you to please read my Ministry FAQ's on my site.
Please read these over, and then we can talk about this more. Forgiven,
I'm having trouble with an argument on the divine nature. Let's say I claim that a nature is a certain type of thing. I also claim that this thing may grow and develop, but the nature will stay with it in whatever stage of development it is in. With this line of thinking, couldn't LDS say that they are gods in embryo with a divine nature, and their divine nature will overtime develop, not unlike their human nature, into something more final. Perhaps a fetus may become a mature adult human. In the same sense, the divine nature becomes a mature divine figure as "God". I haven't visited this stuff in a while, and I need a push in the right direction.
[I responded:] Here are some thoughts. There's a difference between a nature and a stage of development. Bush isn't pres by nature. He's human by nature. LDS must say that we are human by nature since Smith said that we must all "become" gods. You can become a grandpa, but that doesn't mean that "grandpa" is your nature. Your humanness stays with you throughout each of your stages of development. So it's a mistake for LDS to say that we have a "divine" nature according to this way of thinking. They could say that we have a nature that is "divine" in the sense that it's in the image of God, but that's not technically a divine nature. Only God has a divine nature, since He's always been God. That's why a truly divine nature doesn't become God. He's God by nature. On the other hand, a fetus may become a grandpa or an adult, but it's human throughout. Whatever one becomes isn't technically the nature, even though it may be a stage of development of that kind. Does this help?
Thanks for the update. Praying that this new change will open many new doors for evangelism, ministry, and the training and inoculation of others. God faithfully and strategically positions and repositions people for His purposes.
That is excellent, Rob! It's amazing how God works things out. Glory be to Him! I think you are really starting to step things up in your ministry, and it is exciting to be apart of your growing ministry. God has provided for you all these years, and I can't wait to see how he provides great opportunities for you in the future!
It appears that God has provided a great opportunity for you! I'm glad you were able to find a new organization to work with so quickly, that's a miracle in itself. And I can't believe all the additional ministry opportunities you will be having. Thank you for sharing this news with us. We will be in prayer for a smooth transition and the continuation of your ministry.
I was praying for something to work out for you. This sounds like a great match. I am sure you will be a big help to Russ. He had mentioned to me that he needed someone to help train the groups that come up. You'd be great for that.
[This is in response to an e-mail that I sent inquiring of a friend's visit to Temple Square in January while I was in CA:] Salt Lake was fun. We did the tour and that was interesting. We didn't even have to ask that many questions like you said to because there were some other Christians there taking the tour that did all the work for us. It's just so sad they believe all that crap. I mean I was just trying to have an open mind to what they are saying but anyone with half a brain can just see right through the whole gig. Anyway, I get kinda frustrated just thinking about it. It made me appreciate so much the work you are doing there. We need you there so badly! It's great to know that that is were God has called you to be and to minister. It would have been great to see you there but next time. ...Blessings,
I enjoyed your Jan. newsletter. It's so interesting to read the emails people send you and to see what kinds of responses your ministry evokes.
Thanks for keeping in touch with your updates! I am so encouraged how the Lord uses you to spread the good news about Christ! Your calling and obedience to reach the Mormons encourages me to continually want to know God more and serve Him! I will continually be in prayer for you! I usually pray that God gives you strength and endurance, protection and wisdom in sharing with the mormons. I am also encouraged by your true love for the mormons! Keep running the race! His love endures forever and how awesome it will when we get to heaven and see Christ and all worship together-His Glory!! ...Keep chargin' in Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit!
Rob, you never cease to amaze me with your example.
As always, your news is superceded only by things like "tsunami"! It's wonderful to read of the people who are finally getting smart as it were. Glad to know you are doing well - keep up the good work.