MormonInfo.org

(This newsletter is dedicated to all those willing to be arrested for preaching the gospel. Be encouraged!)

June 1, 2005

Dear Family and Friends,

Last month began with quite a bang! On Friday the 6th, I was standing in front of the San Antonio, TX LDS Temple holding up my sign that says "MormonInfo.org" on one side and "JosephLied.com" on the other. I was there to help the LDS celebrate for the last two days of their temple open house. (LDS have public open houses for new temples prior to their dedication.) Mid afternoon an officer named R. Dominguez III (badge # 0449) told me that I couldn't be there doing what I was doing since it was too offensive, and that I needed a permit and an orange vest. I told him that was crazy, and just went back to work.

Some time early in the 5 o'clock hour he came by again. This time I was standing on the west median on the intersection of Hardy Oak Blvd. and Stone Oak Parkway. He parked on the southwest corner of the intersection, and barked at me to get over to him immediately. I stared at him incredulously for a moment, particularly since I'd have to jay walk the busy intersection to obey his command. He just stayed where he was at, and obviously he wasn't concerned about my safety enough to make sure cars wouldn't run me over. When I got over to him, he yelled at me for not immediately listening to him. He then showed me on the laptop in his car the city code, which stated that I needed a permit and a vest in order to distribute pamphlets (chap. 19-8-E, sec. 16-227). I couldn't believe it, so I told Dominguez that he had to be misinterpreting this somehow. I said that we don't even have this law in Utah. He said he didn't care about Utah, and I told him that he's going to lose his job over this. He then asked if he was going to have to arrest me. I told him, "Yes, you are!" With that he turned me around, and handcuffed me very tightly with my big backpack on. He put me in the back of his car, and told me, "It's not built for comfort." This was all done without Dominguez reading me my rights.

As we proceeded east on Stone Oak Parkway, Pastor Chip and Jamie Thompson from Ephraim, UT watched me being taken away. Chip yelled at Dominguez, and the cop told him that I didn't have a vest or a permit.

Dominguez drove me down the hill, we took a right at the next major intersection, and then took another right into a residential area. He then stopped the car, and we began to talk more civilly toward each other. He said, "Look, you've got to put yourself in my position. I'm not a Mormon, and I think Mormonism is bogus. I know about the Satanic symbols on some of their temples, but I've got a job to do in enforcing the law. The other group [Evidence Ministries] went through all the hoops with the city, and is doing things the right way. They got permits and vests." I told him that he had to put himself in my position, since I just got down from Utah where every time I'm hassled by the cops it simply turns out to be bias; there's never any illegality in what I do. And now it appears to me that my First Amendment rights are being violated in Texas of all places!

Dominguez said that he spent 20 minutes at the city council with someone looking up this law to make sure I was in violation of it. I read the laptop over and over, and I told him that I was now convinced that I must be in the wrong. I know that there are certain restrictions to free speech; it's not absolutely unqualified (e.g., one can't shout "fire" in a crowded theater when there is no fire), and a city may impose time, place, and manner restrictions in certain circumstances. So I figured that San Antonio has some quirky law on their books.

Dominguez said, "Look, I'll cut you a deal. If I take you back to where the other group is, and if you ask them, and they deputize you, and you do things their way, then I'll leave you alone as long as you stay off the sidewalk right out in front of the temple. You can stay down the hill at other intersections where the bus passes [this was a shuttle of many buses that were used to transport visitors to the temple from an LDS stake center on Knights Cross, just down the hill]." I said it was a deal, and he proceeded to take me to where Evidence Ministries had their booth (at the Lutheran Church parking lot right across the street from the LDS stake center where people picked the shuttle up). Just before we took a right on Knights Cross, Dominguez said that if I wanted to stand on this corner with my sign and without a vest, he would totally leave me alone!

He dropped me off right in front of the Lutheran Church in their parking lot. He wrote down his name, badge #, the city code that I was supposedly in violation of, and my citation # (05-299027) that would be dropped, as well as the San Antonio Police Department phone #. I shook his hand, and wished him God's blessing, since he told me that he was a Christian. I believe this was a little before 6 PM.

Members from Evidence Ministries came out of the church after Dominguez had left. They told me that they were praying for me, and were happy to see me again. They also told me that they didn't have to wear their vests, and that none of them had permits! Keith Walker (director of Evidence Ministries) then showed me the "exceptions" to this city code that I was supposedly in violation of. The exceptions very clearly stated the distribution of religious material or information! The law was simply intended for peddling off the street.

Keith had me call a police sergeant. A sergeant--John Carry (or Cary)--came, and told me that I was well within my rights to be out there doing what I was doing. And he even told me that I could walk right past the cones that were set up on the sidewalk right out in front of the temple on Hardy Oak Blvd. (Earlier that morning, a traffic cop [I heard was Mormon] told me that if I walk past them, he'd have me arrested. They were obviously specifically set up to prevent Christian missionaries from passing out literature to the visitors exiting and entering the buses.)

So after having dinner with Evidence Ministries (a little after 7 PM), I went to push the issue accompanied by Chip Thompson. Chip videoed most of this event. I started to walk down the sidewalk toward the cones, and another traffic cop (who also was Mormon) asked me where I thought I was going. I told him, "I'm going down the sidewalk." He immediately ran over and stood in front of me. He wouldn't let me pass by him. He was impeding traffic. He said that the city hadn't annexed the property yet, and until they do, it's owned by the LDS Church--the sidewalk as well as the entire street in front of the temple! He told us to immediately leave, but we refused. He reached out with his handcuffs to arrest Chip, but Chip pulled back and said, "You are not going to arrest me!" The cop simply called for other cops.

While this was going on, I called the police department to talk to Sergeant Carry again. I got a dispatcher, who asked me for the name of the cop who was detaining us. I couldn't read his name, since he was wearing an orange vest that said "POLICE" on it. So on behalf of the dispatcher, I asked for his name. The cop told me, "If she wants my name, tell her she can come down here and get it!" The dispatcher said that the sergeant would be coming, and that was the end of the call. I asked the cop, "How do we know you're a cop? Don't you have to at least show us your badge?" He said, "I'm wearing a uniform." He flashed me some badge in his wallet. Then he said that his word is to be immediately obeyed. He said that he saw the deed to the property, and then he gave me a card that had his name on it--Roy E. ["Eddie", I found out later] Rohrer (Police officer #120, Career Education Center - 2615 Navajo, San Antonio, TX 78224; 210-977-7350 EXT 19; CELL: 210-219-3400). He said that he also practices law, and that if we wanted to push this issue, we'd have a difficult time legally.

When the two other cops showed up, one was officer Dominguez. This time his tone totally changed. He was Mr. Nice Guy, asking me to "please" not push this issue. Chip told him that he already blew it when he arrested me, and Dominguez simply replied, "I'm sorry. Haven't you ever made an honest mistake before?"

I told them that I just wanted to speak to their sergeant. Dominguez got Sergeant Carry on the phone for me to talk with. Carry told me that he was off work and about 15 minutes from home, and he asked me to please not push the issue but to simply stay off Hardy Oak Blvd. south of Stone Oak Parkway. By this time, the temple tours were just about over, crowds were dwindling, and since the sergeant had been so nice to me before, I told him that I'd take his advice.

After this, Chip and I returned to the Evidence Ministries booth. There I met Judy Martin of San Antonio, who told me that the LDS Church certainly did not own the sidewalk and the street. It was owned by the subdivision, and it had already signed off with the LDS Church in acknowledging that the sidewalk and the street were to be designated for public use. Judy brought the paper work to show me the next day. Judy and others also informed me that Eddie was a retired cop! Thus, he was impersonating an officer the whole time, and the other cops let him get away with it.

But instead of the headaches of possible jail time, legal counsel and trials, the next and last day of the open house (Saturday the 7th) I resolved to simply stay off Hardy Oak Blvd. south of Stone Oak Parkway. I figured that I only had one day left to advertise the web sites to as many people as possible. If I were around for more of the temple open house, I certainly would have pushed this issue. The cops totally let me operate as I had the day before, and Eddie even offered me part of his lunch. So it was totally worth it to push the issue in order to be allowed the "relative" freedom I experienced on this last day.

The LDS traffic cops evidently put pressure on Dominguez to intimidate me so that many people would not be able to see my sign. This is just one of many examples of LDS paranoia regarding free speech rights.

Men love darkness rather than light (Jn. 3:19-20), and we shouldn't be surprised when they hate us for standing for Christ (Jn. 15:18-21 and 1 Jn. 3:13). For more on this, see this excellent short article by John Piper.

Now some have asked me what I think about Pastor Chip's "Code of Conduct" for the upcoming Manti, UT Mormon Miracle Pageant. The Code stated, among other things, "To avoid the appearance of a protest, we ask anyone that is being housed at the Ephraim Church of the Bible or the Solid Rock Christian Fellowship to refrain from using anti-Mormon signs. The term signs as used in this code of conduct is not only limited to picket-type signs but also overtly anti-Mormon T-shirts." But it clearly goes on to say, "Having said that, we fully understand that it is the common practice of some full-time Christian Missionaries to use signs which aid them in their witnessing efforts. This suggestion does not apply to full time missionaries who's common practice is to use signs when witnessing. We encourage you to use signs if that is your common practice."

I talked to Chip about this briefly while I was in San Antonio with him, and then again in more detail last Sunday after we just happened to visit the same church together. I expressed to him that even though I'm grateful that he allows this lope-hole for me to use signs, I'm still somewhat disappointed that their church seems to be giving a message of discouragement to those who may want to preach and use signs at the pageant. Chip explained that his church previously expressed that they not even be involved in the pageant this year, since they have many family and friends who are so turned off by me walking around the gates preaching and carrying my sign that they can't even witness to them anymore. I simply take it that these unbelievers are confirmed in the judgement that rests upon them (cf. Jn. 3:18). They stand without excuse. But I also sympathize with Chip's awkward position in wanting to reach out to LDS at the pageant as well as in wanting to come back to a church afterwards. Nonetheless, this shouldn't keep those of you who are not planning on staying with the Ephraim Church from doing ministry in a more confrontational way.

I happened to be wearing my "MormonInfo.org" shirt at the church service last Sunday, and one of the pastors came up to me, and without introducing himself to me, "confronted" me by telling me that they don't do "confrontational" ministry there. I told him, "Well I do." He then asked me if I'd trade him shirts. When I told him, "No", he told me that I wasn't welcome there by wearing my shirt! (I also found out later when I wrote the senior pastor that this other pastor was also concerned about my "MormonInfo.org" sticker on back of my car in their church parking lot!) I finally understood what others have felt like who were told by some churches that they needed to wear a tie or have their hair cut a certain way if they were to be welcome! This was the same church, by the way, that didn't want to house a mission team that would be working under me (the team was too big to stay at my home church), simply because, according to the secretary, "As a church we have chosen to minister in a certain why in Utah and are finding a lot of success through loving people first. We just don't want to have any conflict in what would be represented as a group from our church."

And you wonder why the Church in Utah has such a hard time working together? All this seems to me to be allowing the LDS to set how we do things in the church over against the clear mandate we have to "[p]reach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Tim. 4:2-4). It also seems to esteem the unbeliever more important than the household of faith by not encouraging the latter to utilize all the gifts at her disposal, and this seems directly contrary to Gal. 6:10. There's an obvious concern about the misuse of these gifts, but if we as the Church are ever going to have power demonstrating to the world that we are disciples of Christ, we need to be practicing loving one another (Jn. 13:34-35). And certainly this would include encouraging others to utilize their gifts or those areas that they feel called to perform.

Now with all this in mind, it was really encouraging for me to get some e-mails from Mike Norton, who runs JosephLied.com. The first one said:

Mike, First off I want say I'm sorry. I don't know if it was you or someone else, But a few months ago I had a very brief chat with someone carrying one of your signs. I asked if there name was Joseph. Maybe just to get my attention they said they were. I told them I didn't want to read about their lies.

Well, now I know you are right. Months ago I started to look into Church history (including your sight) and found it very disturbing. I was in the bishopric up until then and was very stern and vocal about my beliefs. Even to the point of brain washing my little girl. Now am a recovering Mormon. I am not as brave as you so my wife doesn't know yet. Yet she does have some suspicions since I removed myself from the bishopric. It may take me a few years to tell anyone one else. You are the first. Your sight is helping me get through this time of life and I feel so good about it. Next time I see someone with a sign about your web sight I will stick up for it.

Then the second was a series that started out not very encouraging. This individual initially wrote:

Your site is entertaining. Unfortunately (as is a problem to many tabloid companies) every once in a while there will be a person who comes across your site that is not an impressionable idiot. I'm a mormon, I am not however only converted by faith, there are many facts that support the translation of the book of mormon. I also know that many things on your site have been quoted out of context and used the famed "blah blah....blah...blah" Yes, the phrase "I hate people who think jews are evil" could be turned into "I hate...jews..." congrats on misinforming the public. I'm sure your claim to the site is to inform the public. Why then, is there not a link to a site containing plausible evidences of the book of mormon? like Jeff Lindsay's evidences for the Book of Mormon. Also, I hope you aren't discrediting the book of mormon on behalf of any other religion. Seeing as a group of world-wide christian leaders has recently added it to a list of "Good Books" What then could possibly be your problem with the mormon faith? Perhaps you did something wrong, were excommunicated, and are angry like so many other people who have left the church. I'm not arguing with you to take your site down. I know you work hard, I saw you at temple square (on vacation, I live in Florida), sitting with your little cardboard sheet with your web site written on it. (Or perhaps it was just one of the impressionable idiots listed above) I'm mearly suggesting that the population of intelligent people may be swayed by actual information instead of misquotes, and quotes from Joseph's family after his death (hmm... his family started a new church after he died, and many of the quotes post-death are against the church... weird). Well, you probably get tons of email from people blasting you. I'm just wondering if you'll respond to a person with a legitimate claim.

But then after corresponding a couple times with Mike, this individual said,

Well, you were right (like you haven't heard that a good 1000 times before). However, it didn't take me until october to find out the truth about everything. However, I do refuse to apologize because...well...I'm just a subborn kid. I just wanted to thank you for your site, even if it did offend me before, it did lead me down a path I needed to take. Also, as a way of saying thanks for taking your time and money to help people find the truth, I could make you an actual contact page for your site... Its funny; I've spent the last couple of months almost in anguish because of what I was seeking, but it seems that after I made the decision to leave the church, all of that went away and all I felt was peace. I can't really leave the church for another year because I'm only 17, but in that time hopefully I'll be able to share what I've found with my family. Maybe they'll be able to take the goggles off enough to see the truth.(that or I'll get disowned :) ) I just wanted to thank you again. And now I actually would like to take you up on that lunch offer. I should be coming to Utah this summer. :) Thanks [emphasis added]

The point is... signs work, but there's a big price to pay! Though the signs may offend people, it's really the message they are offended with, and even then, some individuals need this offending before they'll wake up. Keep in mind that these are only from two individuals who took the time to write. There have to be plenty more that were affected positively in one way or another, but didn't take the time to write.

Having said that, we have a special opportunity to advertise MormonInfo.org for at least a couple weeks on a billboard off the 15 freeway in Salt Lake City. This is supposed to advertise to around 112,000 people per day! But the cost, including production, for those two weeks is $2,700. Would you be willing to contribute financially to this project, so that about 1.6 million people would be confronted with the errors of Mormonism and the truth of the Christian gospel?

Endure afflictions (2 Tim. 4:5),

R.M.S.
Rob@Mormon Info.org
Mormon Info

****PRAYER LIST****

"Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest" (Mat. 9:38).

1. For more salvations
2. For those that are coming out of the LDS Church and/or those who have recently committed themselves to the real Christ
3. For God to move more people to do street ministry downtown
4. For Utah churches and individual Christians to support each other's various ministries
5. For financial provision
6. For the ability to get my rough draft comprehensive done soon
7. For God to use my web site (we're looking into billboards!)
8. For love, protection, and wisdom as I minister
9. For the upcoming Manti Pageant

****MAILBAG****

[From a friend of Bruce the street preacher that I talked about in my last newsletter:] I talked to Bruce. he said the person threatened to sexually assault him and Jesus. [I never saw the individual say anything to Bruce; it was only directed to me, and this still doesn't excuse all the other things Bruce said.]

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Thanks as always for your help and support you provide all who go there for this ministry. You are gifted amazingly Rob. It's great to see how God works through your life to do what you do.

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Wow, You and your website remind me of my Mother, just a little sweeter and somewhat toned down... Actually you two don't hold a candle to her hatred of the Mormon faith, and you know despite her best efforts to fill my head with anti-mormon stories and corrupted facts; I STILL JOINED!!! Isn't that incredible?! Your feable attempts at swaying those that waver in their faith may at times be effective, but THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH WILL CONTINUE TO GROW UNTIL IT FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH... I'm sorry you've wasted your time, maybe you should try to sell vaccuums or somthing, it might be more effective. Thanks

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[From the e-mail address, this is evidently from someone who saw me out front of the Houston Temple:] Get a life, It is because of so-called Christians like you that I converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 26 years ago. You have no faith in your own beliefs and in order to build yourself up, you attempt to bring down other religions. There is nothing in this kind of religion that I find desirable. I KNOW that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and I KNOW that Gordon B. Hinkley is a prophet of God and guides the Lords church today. I KNOW that the Book of Mormon is the word of God for the Holy Spirit has bore witness of this to me. If you repent and seek the Lord in humble prayer, you too can know these things. I praise God every day of my life that he led me to his only true church in these latter days. This I say to you in the name of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, Amen!