MormonInfo.org

October 4, 2004

Dear Family and Friends,

Last month my former director of the Utah Gospel Mission, Kurt Van Gorden, called me up to invite me to help him out at the Utah State Fair. He and his wife Cindy had a booth there, and were distributing literature and engaging people in conversations. I spent a couple evenings helping out, along with some other friends of mine. I recall talking to an LDS guy who grew up in Texas and had a lot of Christian friends. He said they all got along very well with each other since they never broached the subject of religion. I told him that was too bad, but he thought otherwise. I told him that I have LDS, and I told him that if I'm right, then my LDS friends are in trouble with God. And it's because I care for them that I tell them what I believe about God. He wasn't comfortable talking about the subject with me, but it made me think how there are too many Christians like that guy's friends. They care so much for their unbelieving friends that they let them go to hell.

I was also able to make a brief appearance on Channel 2 News again last month, but this time it was with my MormonInfo.org shirt (click here to watch the video). I was a little disappointed thinking that I didn't really have a good enough shot for people to see my shirt, but the next day the stats and an e-mail from a friend (see below) confirmed otherwise.

I've been doing other things to get the word out. After the Channel 2 incident I spent a few late evening/early morning hours putting my tract The Seven Differences between Mormonism and Christianity on the cars in my neighborhood. Then a buddy of mine, Aaron Shafovaloff, came out from Ohio to minister primarily for the semiannual LDS General Conference (cf. next month's newsletter), but we also preached at the local high school and advertised our web sites (Aaron runs BiggerGod.com) and JosephLied.com off a freeway overpass in rush hour traffic. Both the high school as well as the overpass were really intense. Some school cop told Aaron that he couldn't stand on public property to minister, and then told him he was going to arrest him if he didn't move. Needless to say, he never did. I had huge crowd around me in which I got pushed quite a bit, and my sign was knocked out of my hand several times. On the overpass we got many different reactions from people. Some were complaining to the police, so a city cop came by to check us out and then left not long after he arrived.

In addition to all the usual important news articles, I have added a number of new Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) to my web site. I also edited a couple film reviews. First, Bill McKeever of Mormonism Research Ministry reviewed a film called Saints and Soldiers. And then second, a good friend of mine, Dennis Monokroussos, wrote a critical review of the DNA vs. The Book of Mormon.

Thank you for every prayer said on my behalf, and for every check written on my behalf.

1. For more salvations
2. For God to move more people to do street ministry downtown
3. For Utah churches and individual Christians to support each other's various ministries
4. For financial provision
5. For the ability to get my rough draft comprehensive done soon
6. For God to use my web site
7. For love, protection, and wisdom as I minister
8. For Ravi Zacharias coming to Utah to speak next month in a few different venues (most importantly, in the Salt Lake LDS Tabernacle in Temple Square)

Rob at the Utah Gospel Mission booth with Bobby Knaus,
Kurt and Cindy Van Gorden, and Bob Verdin

Rob advertising on Channel 2 News

Aaron Shafovaloff witnessing in front of East High

Rob advertising on a freeway overpass during rush hour

****MAILBAG****

It's always great to read your newsletters, Rob. I'm ever-eager to come out there with you every time I read one!

Thank you so much for your monthly updates. It is good to hear how things are going with you. I am also pleased that you gave an update about the incidents at Manti. Although I'm very annoyed and disgusted with the county prosecuter. I am also interested in seeing what happens next year and how his lack of action will affect the streets. I will definitely be praying. This is certainly bigger than you or I.

Thanks Rob for keeping us up to date here in CA. Our group... still talks about our trip regularly. Just today again we were going over approaches we might take next year. The trip was scary for me but definitely life changing! Thanks!

Hope you're doing well! I just read this month's newsletter, and I have a few comments.

...Third, a thought about one of the letters in the mailbag, from the person who suggested that the BM "complemented" and was just an addition to the Bible. Your reply was just fine, but I thought of something you could perhaps use on another occasion - suggest yet a newer revelation from God: one that says that the BM and the rest of the LDS literature is false and that the Bible alone of the earlier works is the standard. (Or a revelation saying we all ought to worship green monkeys made from particle board.) In other words, some sort of new "revelation" that obviously contradicts the older, so that they see that the issue isn't as much that it's "new" as that it's false and contradictory.

Fourth, on "gay" Christians. Your answer was very quick, and implies something you don't really want to say. If "1 Cor. 6:9 is quite clear that those who commit homosexuality will not see heaven," simple as that, then the Bible is wrong in saying that if we confess our sins God will forgive us.

This leads to the second issue I was a little quick with: 2) could there be such a thing as a "gay Christian" who does not act out on his desires? To this, I can't find anything that Scripture says to go against this. So it's not the sexual orientation that bars one from the kingdom, but the habitual lifestyle of an unrepentant homosexual. This totally leaves open the discussion of whether God always changes a homosexual's desires after conversion and in this life. Nonetheless, "gay Christians" in this sense can love God, and do their duty in [either remaining celibate or] keeping their marital vows to a person of the opposite sex and raising a family. Trusting God is a matter of duty no matter what the circumstances, and not simply following one's heart.

I hope this is more clear and helpful.

i'm writing a paper on LDS evangelism and am talking about the more confrontational and the more relational approaches to ministry. this paper is completely my own thing - not for class or anyone but myself. the goal of my paper is not to say or show who is right, but to bring a better understanding of each kind of ministry in hopes to see greater unity between the two. if you could send me a brief, yet clear email on the following that'd be great...

why do you choose to do more confrontational ministry? (not what evidence is there for it, because i already believe there is and have written this in my paper - i also note that you do relational and are not opposed to it)

[I responded:] I hope you read my FAQ concerning "Ministry" on my web site; it will go into much more detail. More could probably be added here, but I like to do more confrontational ministry because

1. I just like it and I fail to see what's the big deal about doing what I like so long as I'm not displeasing the Lord. He wired me for it.
2. I can reach more people with the truth than if I simply confine myself to dealing with my friends.
3. It gives me a thick skin, so I don't remain a wimp and thus, I grow more courageous. These are qualities that Christ had, and I want to be more like Him.
4. I enjoy knowing I'm blessed or rewarded for being persecuted for His sake, and this typically won't happen in relational ministries.
5. The power isn't in my social skills, but in the transforming nature of His word. "How will they hear without a preacher?" So why not get the word out there as much as possible? If so, then this would require at least some confrontation.
6. I don't want to invest the amount of time required to go and cultivate a lot more deep friendships simply for the purpose of winning people to Christ. This is for two reasons. A) I'm too busy trying to get through my doctorate among other things (like dealing with the friends I already have). B) This actually may be disingenuous to the very nature of friendship, which is to really treat people as ends in themselves and not simply as means so that I can witness to them. I'd have to think about this more, but prima facie, it seems like something's out of whack if that's my sole purpose to building a friendship. So instead, I unconditionally love the friends that I "naturally" make under normal circumstances, and of course that includes witnessing to them in various ways, but this is quite different from organizing a crusade to cultivate friendships simply so we can witness to the unsaved.
   

Now am I treating people as means only when I do confrontational evangelism? I don't think so, since I'm treating them as valuable human recipients of a valuable message, and it's their responsibility to use the minds that God gave them to flee their impending doom. So it's no more than treating certain individuals as ends in themselves if they are about ready to go over a cliff as it would be to tell certain others that I've never met before that they are sinners, who need a remedy that the Creator offers.

[He asked:] what is your view of most relational evangelists, and what would you like to see them change in order to more effectively and biblically preach the gospel to LDS?

[I responded:] They need to 1) stop treating people simply as means to get the gospel to them. 2) They need to be more courageous when the time calls. 3) Thus, they need to "redeem the time for the time is at hand." 4) They need to throw in more "rebukes" to their evangelism. 5) They need to encourage their more confrontational brothers and sisters instead of criticizing them out of hand for their evangelism being outside of the will of God. 6) Relation-ists need to "loosen up" a bit, and allow themselves to "preach the word; be ready in season and out of season." 7) They also need to trust God's sovereignty more in bring people to Himself. 8) They need to realize that there's nothing we can do that is going to cut it before God on the unbelievers' day of judgement. (Of course this isn't an excuse for us to act like jackasses whenever we feel like it.)

[He asked:] in what ways could your "relational brothers and sisters" aid you in your ministry? how have they hindered you, and how would you recommend they change in order to work better at complimenting you?

[I responded:] They could aid me in 1) prayer, 2) financial support, 3) actually participating in "some" confrontational evangelism with me, and 4) in not being scared of me meeting their friends, and actually introducing me to them. Check out my June newsletter of a good example of how certain relation-ists hindered my ministry. I was interrupted from preaching by some good-intention relation-ists. They actually rebuked me in front of the crowd I was preaching to. Stupid!

[He asked:] how do you feel that through your more confrontational ministry that you can compliment relational ministry?

[I responded:] A good example of this is what happens every year in Manti. I preach and get a crowd around me, and then Christians start conversations with LDS about what they think of my message. I make conversations easy for Christians. If this can be done on the street with "less" confrontational evangelists (they just aren't as aggressive as I am), then why can't I stir things up for relation-ists to get in conversations with their friends about the gospel?

[I responded:] I suspect you're talking about my ministry to LDS, right? I get crowns in heaven, the satisfaction of helping LDS stay out of hell, the ridicule and abuse of LDS, and the ploys of demons. But this is an interesting question to think about since I rarely do. God's just wired me to reach out to LDS.

[I responded:] Thanks for trashing my website. If you can trash something "so right" as my website, then I can trash the LDS religion. Actually, I'm just bringing up their own trash. What exactly is "trash and incorrect" about my site? Your comments aren't helpful unless you can be a little more specific. Did you read the very first entry on the Home page about what LDS believe about the Church? That trashes all other churches, and LDS take that message door to door via their missionaries. Now why can't I respond to that? If the LDS Church was "so right" as you say, then of course I wouldn't "work so hard to disprove" it. But the facts paint a much a different picture of the LDS Church. It's a nice looking cult that leads people to hell.

[He responded:] the lds religion leads people to hell? haha, right. all the good things we do for others and each other, all the service, and not to mention the healthy lifestyle and code of morals we live by. by any churches standards, we are christlike and headed for heaven, no matter how you look at it. i don't understand why all other churches have to waste their time trashing the lds faith, and noone else. do you see lds people picketing and starting websites to bag on other religions? i don't think so. you are intolerant and misled. you are entitled to your opinion but it is a little immature and NOT christlike to bag on other religions whether it be the lds faith or anyone else. you my friend are not a true follower of christ, anyone can see that in your words and actions. good luck with salvation

saved by faith AND works through the lds faith

[I responded:] See the problem is that you blindly assume that what makes you a Christian is the nice works you guy do. The problem is that Jesus said that even good people who perform many good works will go to hell (Matthew 7:22-23). So are the Moonies "Christian" since they have good works, even though they think Rev. Moon is Jesus?

Now what makes you think you aren't headed to hell? Obviously you haven't been forgiven since you're still trying to do good works to earn God's favor. I've been forgiven, and I stand perfect before God, since He paid for "all" my sins. Spencer Kimball said, "Trying is not sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin" ("Miracle of Forgiveness", 164). Moroni 10:32 says that you have to deny yourself "all" ungodliness before you get God's grace. 2 Nephi 25:23 says that you aren't saved until after all you can do. Have you done all that you can do? You never can. And trying isn't sufficient, remember? God doesn't give you a command that you don't have to keep. You're expected to, and God prepares a way for you to (1 Nephi 3:7). And if you sin, all your former sins return on you [D&C 82:7]. Alma 11:37 says that you can't be saved in your sins, and Alma 34:33-5 says that you only have this life to repent. There's no work for you to do to earn God's favor after this life. If this is all true, then you're in quite a mess. Good luck. It's impossible.

Fortunately the message of Christianity is that Christ did all the work, and He just asks you to trust Him with your whole life. When you turn from your false Jesus and false god and cult, then Jesus will pay your debt completely (1 John 1:9). This is how you can know if you have eternal life right now (1 John 5:10-13).

BTW, check out the links on my web site for LDS links (at the bottom of the page) that do in fact bag on Christians. Again, your own Scripture (1 Ne. 14:10 and P.G.P., Joseph Smith's History 1:19) sets the precedent.

Thanks for being intolerant of my intolerance, Rob

I was just watching Channel 2 news and saw your site "advertised" in the window. I love that window. I'll bet they really regret doing live newscasts there. I always hear about people seeing things in the window, (especially josephlied.com) but this is the first time I've actually seen it. Anyway, I just wanted to say hello. I really hated the idea of coming back to Utah, but it seems like things are changing!

I was reading your latest newsletter again and noticed this question... "My question is and always will be, why do purported 'Christians' preach against other religions who I might add also believe in Christ? Is that what Christ taught in ministries on earth? If you truly want to serve God, go seek out the homeless, the hungry, the heartbroken, the weak, and ease their sufferings. Life is about building up not tearing down. Get a life"

Obviously this is from an LDS reader. I have a hard time believing that he could write this and not see the hypocrisy of LDS missionaries going to Christians and trying to convert them to Mormonism. It seems to me that this question could just as easily apply to anyone who is LDS. If someone was LDS and asked me the above question I think I could easily ask it back.

"Why do LDS missionaries preach to Christians who already believe in Christ?" I would ask them. "Why does the LDS Church still claim all other Christian churches are abominations in the Lords eyes" I would ask. "Why don't LDS missionaries spend their entire missions doing humanitarian aid work instead of just one hour of service a week?"

Rob, I think the person who wrote you this email needs to look in his own backyard before he attacks you over your own front yard. In Christ,

P.S. Keep up the good work, if ever you feel discouraged just remember me, you witnessed to me and although it took time, I am now saved.