Why did Smith say that David Patten was to go on a mission and then he died before he could go?
"Verily thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world. For verily thus saith the Lord, that inasmuch as there are those among you who deny my name, others shall be planted in their stead and receive their bishopric. Amen" (D&C 114:1-2).
It does seem rather strange that in April 1838 the Lord would call Patten on a mission for the next spring only to have Patten die before it could happen. Recall that the Lord is supposed to be ultimately in control of when each individual dies. Also keep in mind that Patten died in good standing with the LDS Church. In fact, he died in a gun battle defending the
Joseph Smith Jr. LDS Church. Joseph Smith said, "Brother David Patten was a very worthy man, beloved by all good men who know him. He was one of the Twelve Apostles, and died as he had lived, a man of God, and strong in the faith of a glorious resurrection" (History of the Church 3:171).
LDS Stephen R. Gibson claims that this was not a "prophecy that David would serve a mission, but an admonition to set all his affairs in order so that he may perform a mission." Gibson claims that Patten did in fact get his affairs in order, and that this was indicative of the Lord’s foreknowledge of his death. Then Gibson says, "And who knows but that Patten served that mission call on the other side of the veil?" Gibson then likens Patten to Judas being promised by Christ in Matthew 19:28 to sit with Him on one of the twelve thrones to judge the tribes of Israel. Finally, Gibson plays the D&C 124:49 card where the Lord lets His people off the hook of keeping their commandments if their enemies are too powerful for them.
There are problems here though. The possibility that Patten served his mission in the spirit world seems difficult to square with the call for him to accompany eleven others who remained living in testifying and bearing glad tidings to all the world the following spring. Further, Gibson leaves out the important detail of Christ saying, "[Y]e which have followed me… shall sit" in the Matthew passage. This makes the analogy between Judas and Patten not very good. The former did not end up following Christ whereas the latter supposedly did, and there was no such statement in the Lord’s alleged command to Patten. Finally, D&C 124:49 does not really help if we are supposed to take God seriously. What God says, He will do; to hell with His enemies (for more on this, see HERE).
With all this in mind, it still seems prima facie that Gibson makes a good point about this being an admonition and not a prophecy. It would be quite different if the passage clearly said that Patten would serve the mission. It would be a lot more obvious that this was a false prophecy if that were the case. As it is though, we need to judge whether it is possible here for the Almighty to have His own reasons for not following through. It is also important to keep in mind Romans 11:29: "for the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" (NASB). If this is the case, then how are there instances in Scripture where God announces He will do one thing, but something else follows (e.g., Hezekiah or the Ninevites)?
I have already dealt with this elsewhere, but it seems that those reasons have to do with God simply showing mercy. When it comes to God, He says, "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13, NASB). God values mercy over judgment.
This is not what appears to be going on with the Patten alleged revelation. God did not extend mercy to Patten by allowing him to be killed when He already told Patten that He wanted him to go on an earthly mission with the other living followers. God also did not need to extend mercy to Patten for being in rebellion to Him, since according to Smith, Patten was not in rebellion.
Things would be totally different if God was not in charge of life itself. But since God is, and since Patten was supposedly following the Lord, there was no reason for God to go back on His alleged calling to Patten by allowing him to die. As such, this supposed revelation seems more like it came from the mind of man rather than the mind of God.
R. M. Sivulka
|North Carolina says... ()|
|"HERE WE GO AGAIN KNOWING NOTHING ABOUT MY CHURCH AND ATTACKING JOSEPH SMITH IS GETTING OLD YOU PEOPLE NEED TO GET OVER IT ." (10/4/15)|
|Tonya says... ()|
|"The reason why we "cant get over it " as you say...is because your church is sending out thousands of missionaries that are teaching a false gospel with a false god and Christ. We want to warn them and teach them the truth. " (12/31/18)|
|A LDS member says... ()|
|"Honestly, why would you create such a website? It's not only offensive to us ( Mormons), but you're preaching false doctrines & making a website based on 'Mormonism'..It just goes to show there are low live people in this word, extremely jealous of the hard work and effort put into our beautiful gospel, that yous have nothing else to do but to put our gospel down.. Seriously? You obviously have nothing better to do then to type rubbish on this website..Think & write whatever you want on your website.. But those strong members of the gospel will look past your lies and deceitfulness & know that our gospel is true to it's standards, responsibilities, priorities and authorities. 17/11/15" (11/17/15)|
|Paul says... ()|
|"First, consider that the website is not for those TBM that will believe anything that they have been told. Consider it may be created to save others from a lie. If you open your mind to the possibility that the LDS Church is not what you have been told you may find a different Christ than the one you know. Look into Smith's marriages with 14, 15 and 16 year old girls and the methods he used to coerce then to sleep with a portly 37 year old man. The lies he told Emma and his faithful followers about these 'marriages.'" (11/5/17)|
|Thomas says... ()|
|""Honestly, why would you create such a website?" Honestly why would Joseph Smith create a false religion? Becasue he was a conman and it was a better way to get money than to claim he could find buried gold in New York State by looking through rocks placed inside a hat that covered his face. Open your eyes. He was a conman just like all the other conmen and false prophets of late. There are numerous court cases against him proving that he scammed people of their money. " (12/28/18)|
|Ignacio Delgado-Aristud says... ()|
|"How much money do you make with this website? Or at least, with this article.? Why don't you also write about the revelations that really came true, just to play fair a little? RM Sivulka, I would like to know about what you have done in your life before giving credit to your writings. " (11/19/15)|
|LC says... ()|
|"Not as much as the what the apostles and presidency is paid" (11/27/18)|
|thamom says... ()|
|"the facts are there in the church's history and writings.
with the number of obvious problems within the lds doctrine, your mind must be controlled by the leadership of the church or you would be able to see.
do not doubt your doubts, if it can hold up to scrutiny why worry? it won't, that's why they say doubt your doubts- they don't want you to know the truth." (11/19/15)
|HiPlainsDrifter says... ()|
|"Appear to be good people, how could they be so led astray?
Joseph Smith has perpetrated the greatest con! Akin to Muhammed." (12/12/15)
|D says... ()|
|"I agree with you when you say Joseph Smith perpetrated the greatest con (and I add LIES)! Akin to Muhammad!" (6/30/17)|
|a mormon says... ()|
|"This website lies" (12/31/15)|
|Christian says says... ()|
|"and your church is a lie" (7/4/17)|
|An ex LDS worshipper says... ()|
|"It's a shame so many Mormons are so brainwashed that even when facts are written they can't see the truth. Thank you so much for this site, even if 1 Mormon leaves this false church it means it served it purpose well. " (1/6/16)|
|Ex Mormon says... ()|
|"The fact that so many lds members come here to spew ad hominems, misinterpret, and take general offense just proves how brainwashed they are. Glad i got out..." (1/18/16)|
|the smart person says... ()|
|"this site cracks me up!! nobody on here knows anything! read a little more before you speak out of your butt! " (2/8/16)|
|Proud EX mormon says... ()|
|"It is sad that Mormons get on here to either criticize or insult the site when they know that by Church law that they are forbidden from visiting or even reading "Anti-Mormon" material, also it is pointless to write anything on "successful" prophecies when the Bible clearly states that it only takes ONE false prophecy to make someone a false prophet., read the Bible more then false doctrines and books. The Bible is the only truth you need! do more then just read these articles do the research yourself you might be surprised. If you claim yourselves as true Church of Jesus then you should ask yourself would Jesus come on here to make insults or would he try and teach truth? God bless the teachings of this site and I pray that the Mormons may learn what real Truth is." (2/8/16)|
|A Person says... ()|
|"Christianity is real there's prof and there's no prof that Mormens are right , But all you need to know is Jesus died on the cross for me and you so stop causing conflict between the religions" (3/6/16)|
|Mike McCoy, D.Min., Th. says... ()|
|"While I understand the frustration of many Mormons when their religion is attacked, they need to understand that it wasn't Christians who first began the confrontation . It was actually Joseph Smith who attacked Christians when he claimed in his revelation that all religions were “an abomination.” Dialog must be with “gentleness and respect,” as both Mormons and Christians desire the same thing and that is for all to be saved. We are told in 1 Timothy 2:4-7, “[God] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.” Christianity is “testable,” and until such time the LDS church allows its member to investigate other truth claims, the hostility will likely continue. Neither side should be held captive, but rather investigate other truth claims knowing, “you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free” (John 8:32). To both sides, I say, continue to dialog, with respect, but go where the evidence leads you, after all, the apostle Paul tells us in 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21, “Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophecies, but test everything; hold fast what is good” (ESV). I say, do not be held captive, when leaders refuse to allow their member to question their beliefs, that’s not freedom, that’s indoctrination. " (3/14/16)|
|Joe says... ()|
|"Thanks I am tired of these missionaries going door to door deceiving people to believe they are christians. The true God does not need to deceive people to make converts. They also did not believe that african americans could join the church because they were racist and believed they bore the mark of cain. Sad" (3/20/16)|
|Lost but now FOUND! says... ()|
|"I appreciate your info. I am so frustrated. I have been a lifelong LDS, (Faithful) member. However, my eyes are now open, but I don't have any real support to help me leave the LDS faith. I don't want to disappoint my family, especially my Parents and Husband. I have been searching for Christ and wanting to feel his love for a long time! And now that I have found him I feel so alone in my own little world. Although I am comforted and happy to finally feel loved by God. In that my Salvation does not depend on my husband. At least if I am to go to the highest degree of Glory... According the lds faith. I now realize that we are all equal in the eyes of the lord and I will not be a baby factory in the eternities. (Although I did love the idea of having spirit children.) But the sweet simple truth of Grace and that Jesus died for all my sins and does not require a lifetime of "WORKS" gives me such joy and happiness. I cannot express the joy I feel knowing that the Bible and Christianity is so pure and loving. I use to be the most judgemental. I still feel that I can be judgmental, out of habit! But I catch myself and I feel more compassion, love, and peace for others, especially those whose sin was visible! Mormonism is all about a LOOK, putting on the appearance of "Perfection." No wonder Utah is known to have the most people on Prozac and watch Porn. People are not happy in the LDS faith. Especially, Women. We feel that we have to look perfect, that if we don't keep our men in line, that we have not done our jobs. The LDS women strive to make everyone else think that they are good and holy. I don't mean to be bashful, but I went to church today and when I go, those old feelings come back to me. That I am not good enough and that I will never be good enough. I should not feel like crying when I leave church. I should feel uplifted and loved. However, I went because I felt pressured.. I have kids who have social groups, and a husband who has self guilt because he thinks I have left the church because he was looking at Porn! LOL.... So he thinks if he goes to church and demonstrates he is doing better, that I will put on the garments again.. What should I say! ?? I love him... I refused to go to the Bishop about his Porn, because I refused to force him to be good. Now I have forgiven him, don't feel upset about his sins, because after all I am a SINNER too! But he does not understand I am not leaving because I am mad at the church. I have come to the understanding that the "Garments" and Temple Ordinances are a mockery to Jesus's most precious gift of Grace! I have finally found Jesus Christ and I know he loves me! I finally understand Grace and it gives me great joy! So I go to church in order to keep the peace! It does not make me happy, but the more I read the Bible the more I know, God does not want me to leave my husband because we don't see things the same way. I truly believe that with time, he will find Jesus Christ too. That he will feel the love and know him. That when he finally knows Jesus like I do, he will be able to share the joy I know feel. However, I sometimes am afraid, and doubt my ability to be strong. So by coming to your website, I have found strength again today. If that makes any sense. Thanks for being a voice to people like me. Without groups like this, I would have never found the truth and would never understand Grace! I would have continued just silently doing what I was told to do. "Enduring to the END" Thinking that my reward would be eternal life as a Godly Wife having Spirit children for eternity! " (5/15/16)|
|saved by grace says... ()|
|"I was moved by your testimony of your conversion to Christ. One of the wonderful things of being a true Christian is that we are not alone, we have been given the Spirit of God to help us and guide every moment of our lives. I recommend you read the book of Romans(if you haven't done so) it's gonna lift you up. I pray that the Holy Spirit will illuminate you and bring comfort to your heart.(I know He will). Just let the love of God that has been given to you flow and it will bare witness to your husband that their is something better out there (redemption through Christ). continue in prayer and in studying God's word. And if possible surround with a Christian community. (Church). blessings and may you come to know God in many ways throughout this journey. One of my favorite chapters of Romans is ch.8. " (7/12/17)|
|Kelli says... ()|
|"I just want to tell you that you are an inspiration to me :) thank you! I am a newly ex-mormon and I can relate." (5/15/18)|
|Brad Greenwood says... ()|
|"I appreciate the website... but I absolutely LOVE the "bruised" Mormons trying in vain to defend their "church". Just a note to these people: these sites are NEVER going to go away... in fact, they are multiplying rapidly. The internet is destroying the church, and even the "Brethren" are baffled as to what to do to try and close Pandora's box. THIS "box" contains truth, not bogus gold plates." (5/27/16)|
|Philly Guy says... ()|
|"Interesting all the people crying on here to stop "attacking their church", yet every weekend you show up ay my door to tell me my faith is wrong.. Mormons and Scientologists have a lot in common, so just be good until you become god of your own planet. BTW, where is that in the original bible?" (6/14/16)|
|Lds youth says... ()|
|"After going to the Manti pagent in Utah, I came across an LED display. Upon the LED display it showed this website. I honestly don't know a lot of the answers on this, but I know that my church is true. Some of the "truths" here are very exaggerated. I am still full heartedly faithful in my church." (6/28/16)|
|Clent says... ()|
|"This is an informative site. HAHA. :) Thanks! Mormonism is evil." (7/3/16)|
|Larry says... ()|
|"I live in the heart of this cult. Yes, its a cult. I have talked to locals who say they only belong to the Church to be liked or use their "store". Yes, its true. No need to lie. Its the internet, not here to make friends or enemies.
Its sad to see LDS people struggle in life, give EVERYTHING they have to their Church, and struggle themselves. The Church requires them to have 4 kids. Easy way to sort out LDS members here. Do they have 4 kids? If yes. Then LDS members. No different than FLDS. Reason? Church needs new members and feature members. Most people keep same faith as parents. So, its a number game. As for most LDS here not living the faith. Its a joke around here. Look at the casino or local liquor store. Guaranteed to be LDS faith there. If their faith is so good, why are they always so depressed? There are many leaving the faith, and if you ask one, they will tell you they left and are much happier. I feel bad for these brain washed people and this cult. =(" (7/29/16)
|kicks and giggles says... ()|
|"I would first like to say thanks for the kicks and giggles of your ridiculous webpage. I would like to point out that the LDS Church is founded on the principles that Christ himself taught to His 12 Apostles. We are not a perfect people by far, however Christ is perfect and His True Church that was organized from the beginning is perfect. " (8/30/16)|
|Mckay says... ()|
When one have this for a foundation and call it God’s work you make reasonable people question your sanity." (3/6/18)
|Rob Sivulka says... ()|
|"To "kicks and giggles," please forward this site on to spread more "kicks and giggles"!" (9/9/16)|
|It is so great to be a Mormon :) says... ()|
|"First thing The LDS people have free agency, there is no such thing as church law that disallows us to read or check out other anti-mormon crap. Second not everything Joseph Smith said was a darn prophecy, (plus we are still alive on this earth) he was a man that had free agency, he was not perfect and also needed the atonement of Jesus Christ. saying that there are many things with the Book of Mormon he would have no knowledge about, example: the Bible and the Book of mormon are structured the same way, the old Hebrew was written using a "Chiasmus" structure. Joseph Smith had to of been a genius or he is the Prophet of God that brought more evidence of Jesus Christ to help us. One of the worst prophecies that Christians believe is the rapture before the tribulation, and this is going to shake the faith of a lot of good people. when it does the LDS people will be here to help you, because we have to go through it to. " (10/11/16)|
|Eyes Beginning to open says... ()|
|"First off having been raised and lived a life faithful to the LDS church, I often thought anti mormon information was simply false information spewed from the mouths of bitter and angry people. I have found that is simply not the case. All the Anti mormon information I had heard about growing up has now ALL been admitted to be true by the church. Apparently yesterday's prophet is today's heretic. examples of anti mormon literature was that Joseph smith had multiple wives, Brigham Young taught the Adam - god doctrine, Joseph had multiple first vision accounts, Joseph Smith using the peep stone in a hat to translate the BOM etc etc, all and I mean all of this has been proven and admitted as truth. Before you go and call things like this Anti Mormon CRAP, read about the whitewashed real history of the church, read the facts because I have found that is all alleged Anti Mormon stuff is, just facts from Church History and Facts about events that transpired and Facts about doctrine that was taught and later rescinded by the church. " (7/6/17)|
|Neil89801 says... ()|
|"Rob Sivulka I see you are an interesting man. Anyone can mock, build up or tear down something or anyone. (That is not the Christian way) I am a Mormon, trying to be a Latter Day Saint. I am a follower of the Great Lord Jesus Christ. He is God. I know the LDS Church was setup by him through the work of Joseph Smith. I can read the LDS Scriptures and gain understanding of what is, and what was and what is to come. If a person wants to keep on the right track to gain the eternal salvation that Jesus offers they should believe in the LDS Scriptures. I am quite aware that some of our leaders have said somethings that can be proven faults using our scriptures. However, if an individual is patient and kind, they can discover many, if not all of the mysteries of God. I am and will remain a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint Church. It is the only church that Jesus claims as his. I believe that completely. Those who turn against the church, great understanding will always be hidden from them. They are members of the club called “forever learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth”. Some of the comments by members posted here are not what we believe or how we should behave towards those who attack our belief. I am thinking they are the same as you, not grasping what is being taught in the church. I wish you and your family well.
|LMAO at the cognitive dissonance says... ()|
|"I just can't help but laugh at all the mental gymnastics some of these people go though for "The true church". Keep doing what you're doing, this site is great. I hope you don't let the zealots get to you." (2/20/17)|
|George Bauerschmidt says... ()|
|"I have talked to many Mormons who just refuse to listen to the truth. If someone had a product to sell me, I would want to know everything before buying it. However, if the product has paralogism, then it will raise some concerns. I love this quote from South Park:
STAN: Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?" (3/23/17)
|Muslim says... ()|
|"Some of the Christians attacking Muslims on here, have you guys ever spoken to an actual Muslim or know what Islam teaches or is this just bias that was passed down from the media or your own family and friend circles.
If you want to spread your Christian religion come and talk to the Muslims and we can both have a dialogue and respectfully talk about religion. Some Muslims like myself know about the Bible more than you Christians know about the Quran and what Islam teaches.
For example: The Trinity is never mentioned by Jesus(peace be upon him), he didn’t say anything about it. The Trinity is an evolved understanding, the church didn’t understand this deep thought at first. The understanding evolved over the centuries, it was discussed, people came to an understanding and later believe it. That's fine but if that’s what you say then don’t say on other hand that Jesus use to preach it. If you tell me people didn’t figure it out for 200 years then don’t tell me Jesus preached it. If you like and say, "No he preached it, but it’s not in the Bible, he use to preach it to his disciples." The Bible says John 18:20 says that Jesus taught nothing in secret.
When Jesus was questioned, Gospel of Mark 12:29, a learned man of the Jew comes and asks him, Master, What command is the first of all? Jesus answered and said onto him, Hear O Israel, the lord our God the Lord is one.
He repeated word for word what was given to Moses, some 1300 years before without the change of a dot. If Trinity was what he came to teach then that was the right moment to educate the guy. Jesus DID NOT say For there are three that bear record in heaven, the father, the word and the holy ghost and these 3 are one. He never said any such thing, he merely reminded him what Moses had given 1300 years before. So there’s no such thing as trinity, as taught in the Bible by Jesus.
Jesus never heard the word Christ in his lifetime. He never heard the word Christianity in his lifetime. It was unheard of. It was a later on creation. And if we meet Jesus in the second coming. And if we have the good fortune of asking him. Oh Jesus, what is your religion? If he says Christianity, we can ask him further to clarify, what church do you belong to? Are you an Anglican, or a Lutheran, or Presbeterian, or Catholic or a Jahovas witness, or a Seven day Adventist, Mormon and thousands of other sects what are you; What church do you belong to? What will he say? What is the name of your religion oh Jesus, tell us? My religion is the religion of total submission to Gods will. One word in the Arabic language for that is Islam.
Jesus on his second coming tells the Christians in Gospel of Saint Matthews, 7 verse 22 “Many will say to me on that day, lord... lord… did we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name cast out devils, and in thy name do many mighty works. What does Jesus say to that?
Jesus says I never knew you, depart from me, get away you rubbish, depart from me, ye that work inequity. In other words he's telling YOU the Christians you are evil doers, evil mongers. Amazing situation? Why would he do that to you faithful Christians who are doing many wonderful things in his name? Can any Christian tell me that?
I'll tell you why. Because you call him Lord. You made a man into a "God".
I don't mean any disrespect, these are just a few examples. So please find out about other religions including Islam if you are looking for the truth and come and talk to the Muslims and lets have a respectful dialogue about religion and let's both agree not to say anything except the truth about the one and only God, creator of the heavens and the earth." (8/10/17)
|Rob Sivulka says... ()|
|"You may enjoy my other site attempting to convert Muslims to the real Jesus: www.MuhammadLied.Info." (8/22/17)|
|kathy says... ()|
|"to want to become God is the ultimate blasphemy." (11/24/17)|
|15 year old LDS Girl says... ()|
|"Yesterday I went to the lights at temple square. I saw one of your people standing and holding a sign with this website on it. As I walked past, your person was yelling at someone and said, “Well Joseph didn’t have just one wife, he had like 35.” Well for your guys’s Information, they only practiced polygamy just so they could be sealed in the temple. It wasn’t for sex or anything like that. Joseph only lived with Emma and had intimate relations with her. He didn’t live with any of his other wives and never had intimate relations with them. They were only married and sealed in the temple." (11/27/17)|
|Rob Sivulka says... ()|
|"Thanks for your post! You have no evidence for your claim. Here is the evidence contrary to your claim: http://www.mrm.org/joseph-smith-and-polygamy. And even if sex was out of the question, Smith had no business marrying other men's wives who were currently married and he had no business marrying 14 and 16-year-old girls as a 37-year-old man.
Rob Sivulka" (11/27/17)
|Rob Sivulka says... ()|
|"I'd also add that as a Church leader, the Bible says Smith had no business taking other wives period (1 Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6)." (11/27/17)|
|Rob@MormonInfo.org says... ()|
|"Just had another thought... if sex is out of the question, and it's just a means to get women sealed and ensure their place in the afterlife, then 1) it's sexist, since it just is a benefit to women, and 2) worthy LDS males should continue the practice and seal all the LDS women and girls of the world to themselves, regardless if they are married or not. However, if this happens, you'll have a lot of angry LDS husbands and parents!" (11/27/17)|
|Robert Sivulka says... ()|
|"Another point... what about Brigham Young who obviously had 55 wives and 56 kids by 16 wives?" (11/27/17)|
|Mormon Missionary says... ()|
|"You act like Polygamy is something brand new. Throughout the entire Bible, people had mutliple wives. Moses, Abraham, The Kings of Judah, Isaac, etc. Are THEY sinners? Whats the difference between there day and our day other than the fact that Jesus Christ Fulfilled the Law of Moses between then..?" (4/26/18)|
|dave snell says... ()|
|"yes, they were all sinners. but Joseph Smith married women who were still married to their husbands - at least 12.
the following is from:
"Following his marriage to Louisa Beaman and before he married other single women, Joseph Smith was sealed to a number of women who were already married.29 Neither these women nor Joseph explained much about these sealings, though several women said they were for eternity alone.30 Other women left no records, making it unknown whether their sealings were for time and eternity or were for eternity alone."" (4/28/18)
|Mormon Missionary says... ()|
|"You failed to answer my question. How do you think all of this would have looked back then if we had the technology we have today. You dont think they dealt with the same problems 2000 years before Christ??? It was all the same. " (5/7/18)|
|dave snell says... |
|"i did - Joseph Smith married women who were still married. The women are committing polyandry. This was not what happened in the OT. Even David knew he couldn't take Bathsheba away from Uriah without him being dead.This didn't stop Joseph Smith." (5/8/18)|
|lookingfortrurth says... ()|
|"LDS Girl, the church doesn't really teach you that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. In fact Joseph denied it. The reason Joseph Smith got killed was because William Law tried to expose Joseph Smith by printing the details of his polygamy. Joseph had the printing press destroyed which led to his death. There are sworn testimonies at the temple lot case of the women saying they had sexual intercourse with Joseph.
Look up Lucy Walker and horror she experienced in Joseph asking her to marry. Look at how old she was. What happened to her after Joseph Smith died? She married Heber C. Kimball and had 9 children with him. Look at how old Heber was.
Look how polygamy continues today and the effect it has on women in these relationships.
Does this really sound like something God would command?" (12/6/17)
|PeaceOnEarth says... ()|
|"why are you people putting filthy garbage on this website? You should all be ashamed of yourselves. You have no right to condone the Mormon religion and Plagarize the book of Mormon to "Falsify" this church. Would god have you do this to other men? He commanded you to love your neighbor, not to point fingers at them. You should all be very, very ashamed of yourselves. Does polygamy even matter today? NO. THEN WHY EVEN BOTHER TALKING ABOUT IT, YOU MORONS!?Take a good, long look at what you are typing to these innocent believers of the true god and priesthood, not some conglomerate of such. You are tearing lives apart, reducing legacies, turning good into evil. You monsters. God will have you punished at the last day." (2/20/18)|
|McKay says... ()|
|"You ask valid questions but I do not think you want answers. It would be to your benefit to seek out those answers and get to the bottom of it. If you pay attention, you can learn much from the people you disagree with if you take the interest to understand." (2/20/18)|
|PeaceOnEarth says... ()|
|"No, no no. YOU are the one who needs to look for truth. I already have answers in the Book of Mormon, thank you very much. I pay attention to the best of my mortal ability in church to soak up what i can and apply it to my life.
Oh, and as a matter of fact, an answer to this question would be great: I would like this website to be blocked. When can that happen?
Feel free to not answer, it was a rhetorical question. " (3/5/18)
|lookingfortrurth says... ()|
|"PeaceOnEarth, I use to think it was all filthy garbage as well. Then I discovered that a lot of the so called "anti-mormon" lies were in fact truth and confirmed by the lds church.
Polygamy does in fact matter today. Because of this practice that Joseph Smith started, many women over time have been forced to live a polygamous life style and this even continues today. Would you want your wife or daughter to be involved in this practice? Do you think polygamy was given by God? What about polyandry, meaning Joseph Smith married other men's wives while their husbands were still alive? Tell me what benefit does that serve? If polygamy/polyandry was not given by God, and was just for Joseph's sexual desires, would that make him a fallen prophet? What does the church teach today about members that commit sexual sin? Can they have the spirit with them?
Here are lds links confirming the history:
All the church essays:
It should not be considered mean or hateful to point out the truth to someone, if it is in fact truth. Unfortunately the church has not been honest to it's members about the history. " (4/29/18)
|Mormon Missionary says... ()|
|"Boy oh boy. If I had the time of day, I could prove the LDS church true 100% out of the KJV of the Bible. There isn't a single church out there that can comprehend the Bible as well as the Mormons can. You can probably thank the Book of Mormon for that.
The False preaching of Saved by grace only can be proved an error using SEVERAL verses out of the Old and New Testaments. The same can be said for the Doctrines of Baptism (Both Dead and Living), the "Trinity-Godhead", Priesthood Authority, The Great Apostasy, Where we go when we die, Hell, the VERY FOUNDATION of Christs church, The Sabbath Day, New Scripture (BoM), Latter-day Prophets, The Restoration, Jesus Christ, and so so SO much more! Please save yourselves from the falsehoods of these Anti-mormons or better yet "Anti-Christs" and put your trust in God. He has all the answers and he has given us ways that we can know the truth for ourselves. We must ACT!!! Theres nothing more to it.
"Truth shall spring out of the earth; and rightousness shall look down from heaven" (Psalm 85:11). The Book of Mormon is Truth and it invites us to ask God for ourselves if it is true. The Primitive Church that Christ established is BACK!!!! God loves us so much that he gave us a way to see things clearly. To not be confused on the many doctrines man teaches out of the bible. I thank my God that he loves each and every one of his children no matter what they do. " (4/26/18)
|dave says... ()|
|"Well, i think you should make the time. Almost every Mormon I know has very little knowledge of the Bible and has never actually read it cover to cover. Let me pick one topic you suggested: New Scripture (BoM). Show us where you would get that in the KJV. Please." (4/26/18)|
|Mormon Missionary says... ()|
|"Haha! You must not have met many Mormons...at least those that are Return Missionaries or have been Members long enough to understand it. How many of YOUR Peers have read the entire Bible? I doubt even you have. I know I haven't. It would take me YEARS to do the things I do everyday (not as a missionary) and study every one of the 23,145 verses to get a complete understanding. There is so much knowledge in there to comprehend that its close to near impossible to understand it all. Especially with all that was lost during the many translations. Anyways I literally just gave you a scripture about the BoM (Psalm 65:11) But I will gladly give you more if that is what you desire.
Genesis 49: 22-26
Isaiah 29:1-4 (Ariel means Jerusalem) (Where the Ancestors
of the People in the Book of Mormon came
Isaiah 29:11-14 (during the translation of the BoM)
And for my all time favorite...
Ezekiel 37:15-22 (its pretty self explanatory if you know
ANYTHING about the BoM)" (5/7/18)
|dave snell says... ()|
|"I live in Utah and am surrounded by RMs at work. Only one of the 6 I work closely with have said they have actually read through the entire Bible, and he only once. I've been a Christian long enough to have read the entire Bible at least 40 times. Last year, because I walk a lot, I started listening to the Bible. I've listened to the OT 6 times and the NT 12 times.
Nothing has been lost in translation, as all modern versions of the English Bible (as well as the western languages) have been translated from the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek for at least 400 years.
Gen 49 - this is talking about Jacob's son Joseph, not Joseph Smith
Deut 33 - same as above
John 10 - this is a reference to all the nations other than Israel, a common theme in both the OT and the NT.
Isaiah 29:1-4 - not sure how this relates to the BoM. It is prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 29:11-14 - I don't see how this is related to the BoM either. And it is talking about scrolls, not plates.
Ezekiel 37 - I looked up all the places where the Hebrew word tranlated "stick" is used. All instances translate the word as stick. I know you have been taught that the stick is a scroll, but it doesn't mean that at all. The context of chapters 36 and 37 make it clear that this is talking about the reuniting of all 12 tribes back in the land of Israel. At the time this was written, none of them were living in Palestine.
None of verses you cited has anything to do with the BoM. If you examine the context, you should be able to see this for yourself.
And just so you know, I moved to Utah almost 5 years ago and have read the BoM, PoGP and DaC 6 times since arriving." (5/8/18)
|Mormon Missionary says... ()|
|"I commend you for your efforts in studying the Word of God. However I would have to disagree with your statements. You mean to say that the Bible is PERFECT in its current translation? You dont believe King James had anything changed when he and his dudes were putting it together. Theres a lot that goes unnoticed in the bible. Things that were changed. Heck even Shakespeare put his own name in the Bible. (Psalm 46)
There are bible verses that contradict each other. Now how is that perfect?
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
another example: And in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month…Nebuzaradan…came…unto Jerusalem… —2 Kings 25:8
…in the fifth month, in the tenth day of the month…came Nebuzaradan…into Jerusalem… —Jeremiah 52:12
What is the truth? There is MUCH truth in the Bible but during this Great Apostacy after Christ and his Apostles were killed, Truths were lost. Things were changed. Can you not agree that the Bible is NOT the same as it was when the Catholic church was formed 300 years after Christ? You'd be crazy to think it was the same.
Anyways to explain those scripture references I previously gave you about the BoM,
Genesis 49- Was NOT talking about Joseph Smith you are right BUT, It was talking about the Seed of Joseph the son on Jacob. Lehi and his family recovered the records of there ancestors from Laban in the first chapters of the Book of Mormon. They discovered that they were of the seed of Joseph. Chapter 49 speaks of Joseph being a fruitful bowel whos branches go over the wall. What is the Wall? Why was this Prophecy given to Joseph so much different than his brethren? His seed being taken to the Promised land on the other side of the world would be a perfect explaination. It also talks about a separating bretheren. Lehi and his family were led by God to leave Jerusalem and go to the Americas (Separated)
Deut talks about the Precious things of the earth and the "Fulness" thereof would be a blessing to come upon the head of Joseph. We as LDS claim that we have the fullness of the Gospel through the Book of Mormon which in its introduction claims to have the Fullness of the everlasting gospel
John 10 speaks of the other sheep. In 3 Nephi 11, The savior himself comes down from heaven and manifests himself to the Nephites. these were sheep that he already had that weren't of "this fold" (Jerusalem and such). The Gentiles were of no such knowledge of the savior unlike the Nephites and the people of Jerusalem. The Nephites were already part of a Fold of Jesus Christ. " (5/8/18)
|dave snell says... |
|"Thank you for your reply.
I haven't used the KJV for about 40 years. There were dozens of English translations completed during that time. I have about 10 translations plus the original languages in the Bible apps I use. This allows me to compare so I can validate them against each other. One of my favorite translations, the NET, has a digital version that has thousands of notes that explain why the translation committee translated things the way they did. So it's all very transparent. And there are multiple web sites that allow you to load a lot of different translations, not just in English either - biblegateway.com, biblehub.com, bible.com.
As far as the contradictions you cited:
I assume you see a contradiction in the first pair of verses because the slander against the Holy Ghost will never be forgiven, but whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. I don't believe this is a contradiction, because if anyone is able to slander the Holy Ghost, they will never call on the Lord to be saved. This is similar to when it says that Pharaoh hardened his heart, and God hardened Pharaohs heart in Exodus.
As to the second one, the scholarly consensus is that at some point in the past, when the Jeremiah passage was being copied, the scribe's eye accidently saw "ten" in the fourth verse of the original scroll he was copying from and wrote that instead of "seven". This is somewhat common in ancient manuscripts. There are a number of places where that has happened in both the OT and the NT, that scholars have been able to discern by comparing manuscripts from different places and languages. The Dead Sea scrolls have been very helpful in that way with regards to the OT.
I don't know how you would be able to know that scriptures were lost unless you knew what they originally said. And if that were the case, you would know and nothing would be lost. In the case of the NT, we have thousands of copies of it in the original Greek, as well as another 15,000 copies from other languages, from the middle of the second century until the time of the printing press. Because of this, scholars (specifically textual critics) are able to reconstruct what they believe is the original text with, according to them, about 99.7% consistancy. This text is what virtually all translations done in the last 40 years use.
Gen 49 - Most of what you think applies to the BoM is the history of Joseph with regards to his brothers. That's part of why it is so different. Joseph was Jacob's favorite son, so it would make sense that he would spend more time on his blessing. Jacob uses the past and present tenses in verses 22-24, not future. The future tense is used in verses 25-26, in a more standard blessing.
Deut 33 - I doubt that any Rabbis or Jewish scholars would agree with the LDS interpretation as you've described it. The blessings described are completely material, not spiritual.
John 10 - if you read the OT and the NT, you will see many references to the Gentiles or the Nations being brought back to God. In Romans 15, Paul quotes out of Psalm 18, Isaiah 11 and 42, to show how God is the savior of the nations. This is the broad viewpoint of the entire Bible. God releases the nations in Gen 11 and chooses Abram in Gen 12 to start over. But ultimately he will bring the nations back into the fold." (5/9/18)
|Former Sister in Zion says... ()|
|"Oh friend, I’ve spent my morning reading out of Romans and there were so many instances when I was like “oh, Mormon lightbulb”.... let me share just one with you. Romans 10:2-3 For I near record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of Gods righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God. " (4/26/18)|
|McKay says... ()|
|"Sorry missionary the emotional reasoning of the Mormons does not equal truth. Truth doesn’t come from mere facts or data either. You will only know truth by experiencing it!" (4/27/18)|
|Mormon Missionary says... ()|
|"....Thank you for literally repeating everything I have been saying. Ask God what we seek to know is true "You will only know the truth by experiencing it!" Very true....Thats literally all we ask people to do when studying to learn about the Mormons. To ask God!!!!! You cannot truly know something unless The Holy Ghost has manifested the Truth of it unto you.....I asked God if the Book of Mormon is true after reading it all the way through. not 5 seconds after I said amen, I was overwhelmed with Peace, Joy, Happiness, Goodness etc. Galatians 5:22-23! I have a strong Testimony of the Book of Mormon and I know it is of God written for us in these Last Days" (5/7/18)|
|McKay says... ()|
|"Mormon Missionary - Don'tcha think if God wanted you to know the truth he would reveal himself to you and reveal yourself to you rather than tell you to believe in a book? " (2/25/19)|
|McKay says... ()|
|"BTW missionary, who do you think authorized the KJV Bible? I will give you a clue - it was not God our creator. Try men, even Jesuits and Zionists. it’s not even a holy book of the Jews, that would be the Talmud.
And all you need to do is read the sacred oaths of the corporate organizations you serve and ask yourself, when did you ever see Jesus Christ slay anyone with a sword? I mean even Joseph Smith called himself the second Mohammed of the Koran and called for war.
Religion and politics is a greedy power-hungry business of brainwashing people with fear, and that they must $ pay $ their own way to heaven. Murder is the way of religion and Jesus Christ cams to show us a better way. Choose you this day whom you will serve..." (4/27/18)
|RB says... ()|
|"It's hard to admit when you're wrong. When everything you've been taught is a lie. But even when the facts are right in their face, when the truth is undeniable, TBM's won't accept it. You're LDS? You're in a cult. " (11/27/18)|
|Samuel says... ()|
|"After doing some research, please someone tell me how you can believe one man's testimony without any evidence. Where are the maps and all of the archeology findings of this gospel? Why would GOD raise his chosen people the Jews to preserve the Word of God, round up twelve disciples to preach and write the gospel? Furthermore, Jesus gives his life shed his blood was buried and rose the third day for the sins of the whole world including blacks only to raise a man named Joseph Smith, a man who was messing around with witchcraft. I do believe that Joseph had a visitation from Satan the same one who caused Eve and Adam to be cast out of paradise. " (2/25/19)|
|McKay says... ()|
|"Samuel, first of all, the 12 disciples did NOT write the gospels. Secondly, Peter was supposedly the 13th disciple, but he never met Jesus. His messiah's name is backwards - Christ Jesus aka Cesar's messiah. Keep up the researching lol, Mormon's are no different than any other religious corporation all having a little bit of truth surrounded by a lie. Talk about taking the hook, line, and sinker!! But no joke." (2/25/19)|
|dave snell says... ()|
|"He actually said "preach AND write". Matthew and John were disciples, According to early Christian sources, Mark wrote for Peter. And Paul was considered to be the 13th apostle (although there are other men called apostles in the book of Acts). Paul also claims that he received direct revelation from Jesus, so he did in fact meet him. And sometimes Paul uses Christ Jesus and sometimes Jesus Christ, sometimes in the same verse. In the letter to the Romans, Paul flips back and forth between the two versions around 30 times." (2/26/19)|
|McKay says... ()|
|"Correct, Small Paul the "13th (and false) Apostle" - often grouped together with the other Twelve. It is according to the Scholars that the Gospels were not written by the followers of a Jewish Messiah but by the intellectuals of the 3 Flavian emperors after the 66-77 C.E. war between the Romans and the Jews. Christianity replaced the Jewish Messianism that warred against the Roman Empire with a version of Judaism that would be obedient to Rome. The purpose of Christianity was suppression. Mormons like their Book of Mormon war stories, they should also like Josephus' War of the Jews. " (2/26/19)|
|MormonInfo.org says... ()|
|"You speak broadly like all scholars buy what you're saying. However, numerous scholars disagree that the Gospels were written that late. There are basic reasons for that, most notably John A. T. Robinson. The argument basically is that Acts was written by Luke after the Gospel of Luke as stated in Acts 1:1. There are 2 good reasons why Acts was written prior to 70 AD: 1) there's no mention of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and you'd expect that in the first book of Christian history if the event would have already happened... especially, if nothing else, to promote Jesus' prophecy about it's destruction in such places as Mat. 24. 2) Paul's death is never mentioned, and you'd expect that as well if he had already died. All scholars recognize that he died in the mid-60s. So the Gospel of Luke was written prior to this, and it's recognized as a later Gospel. " (2/26/19)|
|dave snell says... |
|"Well said. And that's just the tip of the iceberg." (2/26/19)|