Ravi Zacharias' Coming and Effect in Utah
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Note: Zacharias is quoted as saying that he "will not deal with theology" when he speaks in the Tabernacle on the 14th of Nov. (How can he, in that case, state the differences between Mormonism and Biblical Christianity? That is "theological" matter, is it not?) In my opinion, if he does not state the differences clearly, Mormons will think that he is speaking of "their Jesus" and will be impressed that "someone who is not a Mormon can speak that well about him".
Robert Millet (BYU) is quoted saying that Zacharias "did not write that chapter" [chapter on the LDS church in the Kingdom of Cults]. And that he only "lent his name" to that book. Isn't that implying that Zacharias is not, himself, saying that Mormonism is a cult? D.L. Moody did speak in the Tabernacle over 100 years ago, but he did not visit with the First Presidency of the LDS church, because of their huge doctrinal differences.
It sounds like Zacharias is speaking to the full houses. If he could make a difference to Mormon audiences on who Jesus is, why are so many Christians insisting on going and taking seats from Mormons? If we believe that Zacharias is able to preach so clearly on Jesus of the Bible that Mormons will see the difference, without even touching theological issues, why don't born-again believers give their seats to Mormons?
Articles ...from Deseret News, 11/06/04 attached.
Blessings,
Rauni
HIS Ministries International
QUESTION: Did you read the articles in SL Tribune and Deseret News last Saturday about Ravi Zacharias visit? I think I forwarded them to Dave. I am wondering how is Ravi Zacharias' three day speaking tour in Salt Lake City, including in the LDS tabernacle, financed? Who is paying him? Tickets are free. All arrangements, ushering, music, everything is provided by the LDS church. Could it be that the LDS church is paying him, perhaps through BYU? It was said in the paper that Robert Millet, BYU chair and Greg Johnson (his buddy) have organized and arranged Ravi's visit. I am sure that Ravi's visit will cost a lot of money - to someone. If he is paid by the LDS church, then it explains a lot: of course in that case he is not going to "deal with theological differences" - [sigh] - nor say anything to bite the hand of his Mormon supporters. There goes another one... He is a philosopher - does that now mean double-talker also? I don't mean to be sarcastic, but I am at loss with this. Why do I feel so betrayed as a Christian? Does anyone else feel like that?
I was told that Greg Johnson was, a couple of nights ago, on TV channel 20 speaking that we all should unite and not have "denominational differences". Was he saying that the LDS church is another denomination in Christianity? I don't get it. Why is everyone so agreeable with all this - I mean "Millet-Johnson-Standing Together-Ravi Zacharias-LDS church connection"?
Someone told me just recently that Johnson has been standing with some other pastors during the LDS Gen. Conferences in front of the temple square and saying to Mormons going there, "I hope you have a good conference". Isn't that like saying people walking off the cliff to their death, "Have a great fall"? What is happening here? I cannot understand this "Standing together" with Mormons! Would someone please explain. We should be nice to Mormons, Krishnas, Hindus or what-have-you, but "standing together" in this context to me means to have theological agreement. Agreement in moral or social issues is not enough. We can "stand together" with atheists or anyone in those matters.
I am hoping that someone will enlighten me on this.
Rauni
HIS Ministries International
Rauni, grace and peace to you brother. [Note from Dave: Rauni is a lady, Aaron. The name is Finnish]. Leroy (a buddy of mine) and I can corroborate at least the attitude of what you heard. Two General Conferences ago we heard ST volunteers saying, "Have a nice day, ma'am." "What a lovely day, ma'am, don't you think?" "Take care!" Right as they were going to soak in God-dishonoring lies from a false prophet...
"We desire that they might know us not as their enemies but as their friends. Let me make it perfectly clear that we do not intend to endorse Mormonism or contend against any other demonstrators by participating in this event. Mission Lovingkindness II simply seeks to express to Latter-day Saint people that evangelical Christians love Mormons, period. Standing together believes that when we are able to offer a tangible demonstration of love in the context of relationship, the truth of God will be better understood and more genuinely embraced." -Standing Together Ministries, Fall 2004 Newsletter
Akin to:
"[We] are encouraging those who publicly share the gospel of Jesus Christ to do so in a loving and respectful manner, sensitive to what others hold sacred. This would include sharing their beliefs through friendships, the positive teaching of the Bible in churches and through several ministries of compassion like the Salvation Army and the Rescue Mission, etc." -Salt Lake Theological Seminary
Understandably, they were trying to contrast some of the more egregious KJV street preacher antics! Unfortunately I think it didn't stop there, but functioned (perhaps unintentionally?) to contrast ALL confrontational ministry. I know for a fact that that's how *some* of the volunteers and *many* of the LDS interpreted it. To be fair, LDS folks misinterpret legitimate confrontational evangelism as well!
I think it'd help balance the mess if ST publicly endorsed legitimate street preaching and genuine confrontational evangelism--or even better, publicly denounced the LDS false gospel like Paul did in Galatians 1. Certainly it cannot all be reduced to, "LDS members have a right to attend General Conference without being yelled at."
I doubt Mr. Johnson was speaking of denominational unity between the Mormon Church and Christendom. I've talked with him and he seems solid regarding the division between Mormonism and authentic Christianity. His ministry is named "Standing Together" on the premise that Christian churches in Utah should unite "around movements of prayer, service and strategic evangelism." Unfortunately, given the ambiguity of the name and the actions of "Mission Lovingkindness", I don't think many understand that. "Standing Together" sounds like, well, you know.
But praise God Ravi is coming. The LDS mean it for evil, but perhaps God sovereignly means this *particularly* for good (Genesis 50:20). If Ravi does not explicitly criticize LDS Church teachings, it will be something to be joyful over if he at least paints a picture of the supremacy of Christ. That's not something LDS folks get non-glibly on Sunday!
A great passage to keep in mind during this mess
"Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. But we have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. ***We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God***. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, 'Let light shine out of darkness,' has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." 2 Corinthians 4:1-6
My wife and I will be in prayer for Ravi and Utah,
Dear FPW's (Faithful Prayer Warriors),
THE RAVI ZACHARIUS MEETING
Just thought I would send a short report on the Ravi Zacharias meeting which was conducted in the Mormon Tabernacle, in SLC, this past Sunday night. No doubt this was an historic event and I am personally glad it is now history. The LDS Tabernacle was packed to overflowing with 6,000+ in attendance. I am guessing that the audience was about 3/4 Christian - 1/4 Mormon.
From my personal observations, the meeting was the good, the bad, and the ugly. I cannot honestly say whether I thought it was more bad than good or more good than bad.
The Bad... The first half of the meeting my stomach hurt -- it felt like I had swallowed a 1 ton boulder. My daughter Kristin said the first half of the night was just like the end times movies we have all seen where the religions of the world join together to hold hands and pretend that there are not any real issues which should divide us. What Richard Mouw, from Fuller Seminary had to say was way out on the limb. When he stated that Christianity had sinned by demonizing Mormons/Mormonism and we owed the Mormon people an apology... in my opinion he cut the limb off. How can you possibly demonize a false religion which teaches false doctrines and has deceived multitudes of people for decades. In my opinion what he said was irresponsible, he owes many Christians and Christian anti-cult ministries a massive apology for misrepresenting the majority of us. The other thing that sickened me was that every Christian which spoke (except for Ravi) quoted Joseph Smith in a good light. I am not implying that every word uttered by Joseph Smith was blasphemy but why would any Christian want to lend credence to a false prophet. Another thing that really bothered me was when Richard Mouw stated that Christians should join with the LDS people to celebrate the 200 year birthday centennial for Joseph Smith. Why any Christian would want to celebrate the life of a false prophet is way beyond me? The first half of the meeting seemed like a series of serious mistakes to me.
The Good... Considering the circumstances, I thought, Ravi did a great job!!! I do not think he compromised his message in any way. The topic he preached on was that Jesus Christ is the physical embodiment of absolute truth. I was especially pleased with his first three points...
Point #1 - The hearts of all men are desperately wicked and full of sin. Ravi pulled no punches here. The BYU faculty seated behind Ravi on the platform showed visible signs of concern on their faces as he waxed eloquent concerning Jesus Christ's teaching about the total depravity of men's hearts.
Point #2 - The place where the absolute truth concerning Jesus Christ and his mission to our world is best understood is at the cross. Ravi spoke for a good 10 minutes about the cross. He emphasized and reemphasized the ultimate importance of the all sufficient sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. (For several minutes Ravi spoke directly to the LDS big wigs on the platform and from where I was sitting it looked like they were squirming)
Point #3 - The truth concerning Jesus Christ must be viewed in light of the Holy Trinity. If you misunderstand the divine unity of the Trinity you entirely miss the truth concerning Jesus Christ and his incarnation. (with this point the entire crowd burst into applause... the BYU faculty didn't clap)
Another highlight of the night was the music of Michael Card. Michael's music complemented Ravi's message beautifully. Until the benediction the second half of the service was great...
The Ugly... Unfortunately, the benediction went right back to the flavor of the first part of the service when Craig Hazen from Biola University stated in his closing prayer that he hoped each person in the audience would demonstrate the same desire to search for truth that Joseph Smith had demonstrated... (the 1 ton boulder in my stomach that had melted away as Ravi spoke returned with this sickening thought).
As I said earlier, in my opinion the evening was good at times... bad at times... and downright ugly at times. This is only my opinion, for what it's worth.
In Christ's Service,
Pastor Chip
ephchip@sisna.com
So, Mr. Mouw wants us to celebrate the birthday of a known false prophet, false teacher, cultist, occultist, liar, fraud, plagiarizer, and criminal who has deceived and mislead millions of people into a false gospel with doctrines of demons and away from the true, biblical Christ? I'll pass.
I'm also not aware of the evangelical community appointing Mr. Mouw to be our spokesman in an apology for something that only a relative handful may be guilty of. While those of us in the trenches are fighting for the souls of those lost in Mormonism (and even the very elect of God who have been or will be deceived), Mr. Mouw makes it sound like "we evangelicals" are doing something wrong that we need him to go to the Mormon community and apologize for on our behalf. Does he think that his position as the president of a seminary, gives him the authority to do so? If so, me thinks he thinks much more highly of himself than he ought. LDS apostle, Bruce McConkie wrote:
"And be it remembered that the gods of the creeds, which are the gods of Christendom, are just as false as are the gods of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Muslims, Amorites, Hittites, or any other peoples, excepting only the members of the true church." A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 1985, p. 543.
On behalf of the evangelical community, could Mr. Mouw please ask a Mormon representative to apologize on behalf of the Mormon community for the comments of Mr. McConkie and also the anti-Christian comments made by other Mormon leaders, including Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor who have often misrepresented the faith and beliefs of evangelicals? Could Mr. Mouw at least request a retraction from Gordon B. Hinkley that the Mormon church is "the only true church on the face of the earth"? I won't hold my breath.
I don't have a major problem with Ravi's comments as quoted in Deseret News. But Richard's comments demonstrate a lack of understanding about the depth of deception in Mormon teachings and doctrines, and of the impact that his comments have on those of us in the trenches.
God is sovereign and in control. So, Mr. Mouw's unfortunate comments may be no more than a blip in the work of God amongst the Mormons. But since most Mormons are likely to view Richard Mouw as an actual spokesman for evangelicals, Mormons will think they have additional justification to question our message and motives.
If you agree with my assessments, I think it would be a good idea for him to hear from those of us who are able to communicate to him, the potential impact of his comments on our ministries. The professor needs some educatin'.
Bob Betts,
Concerned Christians
Aaron Shafovaloff, in Ohio, was the first to e-mail me today to ask me what I thought of last night at the Salt Lake Tabernacle. Since then, others have phoned with the same question and others I have encountered out-and-about today.
Here's my basic answer to them all, although I can tell you that just about everyone with whom I've talked are all saying the same thing, folks. Ravi did an outstanding job of presenting the Gospel. It occurred to me last night that Ravi, who mentioned The Cross, The Passion of Christ, the Bodily Resurrection, The Holy Trinity and a clear presentation of Who Jesus is, backed by a lot of verses, was speaking across the same pulpit from which Brigham Young would have preached Blood Atonement, Adam-God, Polygamy, etc. What really blessed me was, when Michael Card sang his final song, there were some people lifting their hands in worship in a few spots and some even standing. (The Pentecostal woman behind me was as was the Presbyterian man in front of me). It seemed that the Holy Spirit was very Present at that time. After all, God promises that He will dwell in the praises of His People and I sensed that a spirit of praise went through there at that time, something that has probably never been known in that place.
Consider this: Ravi, the first Christian to be allowed to speak in the Tabernacle in 105 years, didn't panic and didn't compromise; he did the best thing he could have done: he preached JESUS! And he couldn't have done a better job.
If there was one thing that could have been done differently, perhaps I am selfish for mentioning this, but I wish there had been deaf-interpreting for those of us who are hearing impaired. (I was thankful for the two LDS elders who found me a place right at the front so I could both hear and lip-read). Also, the sound system was not that great; even a lot of hearing people had trouble hearing. I would have offered to have interpreted it into Sign as I have done at other events in years past but my hearing has gotten so bad, I can't hear well enough myself in those situations to do it anymore.
Yes, I know that several of you have concerns that the LDS will spin this to their advantage to attempt to appear mainstream and that the LDS person hearing it will think we're all saying the same thing. Well, I knew that there was no way we could stop it from happening so my feeling was to make the most of it, both last night and in the coming weeks/months. I came away with some names and phone numbers.
I am already dialoguing with the bishop of my ward. I gave him two tickets for it and he phoned me last Tuesday night to say, "Father, I can't make it because of an awards ceremony I have to go to for my daughter, so would it be all right if I gave the tickets to the Stake President?" I said "sure." We have set up a time to meet to talk soon even though he didn't make it to hear RVI himself.
Bob Betts, (whom I've never met), is absolutely right in his take on Richard Mouw. I was there, I heard it and Bill McKeever phoned me later last night to talk about it. I had heard that Fuller Seminary had gone liberal since I first visited there in 1971 but I didn't have reason to think much more about it as I have no contacts with anyone there now. Now that I have heard Richard Mouw speak and say what he did, Fuller will not be a place I can recommend to any of my younger ministers coming up here at Church of the Risen Christ or to our fellow conservative Anglicans with whom we're in fellowship.
So, let's get to know those who minister among us, as St. Paul says, and make the most of what took place last night downtown. I was blessed by it, overall, and most I know were too. I saw a lot of Christians there I've known for the past 27 years I've ministered in Utah and the show of unity among so many diverse Christian believers last night was great. And to think it happened on Temple Square blessed me!
Now I'll sing Kumbayah and ring off.
Dave Roberts,
Sandy, Utah.
ICMCowboy@aol.com
Dr. Ravi,
Having been a Mormon for 40 years, I was so distressed to read the article about you speaking in S. L. and acknowledging them as anything but a cult. Don't you know they believe that all other churches are of the devil and that God was once a man, God has a body of flesh and bones, Jesus was his "literal" son (you figure that one out), Lucifer was another son, that the demons were other sons, that blacks are less "valiant" sons, that whites are "valiant" children, that Jesus therefore is our brother, and that man can become a God.
There are so many ministries around the world trying to help people understand the true God. This did not help anyone except the Mormons.
'Sam' Mikel
Mormon Outreach
Vancouver, WA
Direct: 1-360-258-2440
For more see: mrm.org
samm@agentmikel.com
Ravi Zacharias at the Mormon Tabernacle (11/15/04)
As many of you know I attended Ravi Zacharias' speaking engagement at the Mormon Tabernacle last night. I am appalled at what I heard there, as well as how Dr. Zacharias side-stepped two direct questions about Mormonism on Saturday night at the University of Utah. The first question asked there of Dr. Zacharias was what are the differences between Mormonism & Christianity. He sort of replied, with a disclaimer. He said "I have to keep in mind that I am a guest here". He then went on to "answer" that question, but failed to explain what the differences are and how significant they are for a person's salvation.
Last night Greg Johnson, Standing Together Ministries, (main catalyst in organizing Dr. Zacharias' visit) introduced the Evangelical Christian leaders in attendance at the Tabernacle, sitting on the main stage.
He gave a special honor to Craig Blomberg from Denver Seminary, saying that his book (with BYU's Steven Robinson), How Great the Divide was instrumental in getting the ball rolling in getting evangelicals and Mormons together.
The first Evangelical who addressed those in attendance was Fuller Theological Seminary President, Richard Mouw. He spoke to the Mormon community on behalf of the Evangelicals, saying, "We have sinned against you." "We have demonized you." He also encouraged Evangelical Christians to take part in the upcoming celebrations of the 200th anniversary of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith. What Mr. Mouw was asking the Christians to do is to celebrate a false prophet! (Are we next going to be asked to celebrate a birthday of Mohammed and Buddha as well?) He also went on to quote Joseph Smith words, as having said that all men must repent in the name of Jesus Christ, whose justification is just and true. The problem with this is which Jesus Christ was Joseph Smith speaking about? Jesus taught about in the Mormon church is a spirit brother of Lucifer, and who was conceived by the God-man of Mormonism, who came to Mary and sexually conceived Jesus. This God the Father of Mormonism is a former mortal man, who has not always been God. His son, Jesus of Mormonism, is a spirit brother of mankind, and he only "became a god" after his resurrection. Joseph Smith obviously, according to teachings of the Mormon church, was not speaking of Jesus Christ of the Bible who created all things, including Lucifer. Jesus of the Bible is God who became a man, and was, in His incarnation, "begotten by the Holy Ghost". He has always been God. We can't assume that Mormons understood what Ravi was saying, when their teachings tell them another story of Jesus. We have to look at the facts closely: what Joseph Smith and the Mormon church have taught about Jesus. Asking a person to repent in a name of a false Jesus cannot be honored by God. We have to know who Jesus is. (John 17:3.)
The next person who came to the podium was Dr. Robert Millet, a religion professor from Brigham Young University. He talked about D.L. Moody's visit to Salt Lake City over 100 years ago. He basically was comparing this evening to that visit. He then went on to say that "God is our father and loves us all." That sounds great but we need to look at who Mormons think God is. The God of Mormonism was once a man and had to progress to Godhood. He is one of many Gods and they teach that he is our literal Father in Heaven because we were born to him and his wives on another planet as spirit children before we came to earth. That is not what the Bible teaches. We are made in the image of God, which image is not a physical, but a spiritual, for God is Spirit. We are not children of God until we accept His free gift of salvation through His Son, Jesus Christ of the Bible. John 1:12 says it clearly, "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name."
Dr. Millet went on to say that "this is not a broad ecumenical movement and that we can't browbeat one another with the facts." If we can't use facts how can we reason with each other? Dr. Millet said that "God cares more about people than truth." I almost fell out of the pew I was sitting in when I heard that.
Dr. Zacharias was supposedly going to talk about absolute truth. My question now is, how can we discount truth? Jesus Christ is the truth, and thus we can't say or think that God does not care about what the truth is. Once again if we discard truth and facts we are relying solely on feelings. The Bible says that we cannot trust our feelings, or our heart. Jeremiah 17:9 declares, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: Who can know it?" Dr. Millet then quoted Joseph Smith as saying that "truth will cut its own way." What was he saying?
Greg Johnson said that he had asked the President of the Mormon church, Gordon B. Hinckley, why he "allowed" the evangelicals to use the Tabernacle. He quoted President Hinckley as saying, "Well is sounded like a good idea, and we were glad to help." I am sure that Hinckley thought it was a good idea because by Dr. Zacharias coming to speak there gives validity to the Mormons as Christians.
No one during the entire time spoke of the major differences between Mormonism & Christianity.
When Dr. Zacharias came to the podium he agreed that there were differences between LDS and Christianity, but yet he didn't say what those differences are. Dr. Zacharias said that "We know little about Jesus." I was surprised by this statement because the Bible tells us so much about Jesus, who He is - and is not. Dr. Zacharias spoke of the exclusivity of Jesus and said that "Truth is exclusive". He quoted from Mark 4, and stated "the mystery of Jesus is the mystery of divine personality." I am not sure what Dr. Zacharias meant by this. He then started his sermon , "What made Him (Jesus) unique."
He said, "description of the human condition [which] confirms to reality as we know it. The heart is wicked." He then spoke from Matthew 15 about a condition of our sinful heart. He told a joke about how we try to compare our own sinful condition to someone else's worse condition and rationalize our own. In my opinion, this joke was not a good one to be told to a Mormon audience, because the pastor in this joke received a hefty sum of money for preaching at this funeral. As you may know, Mormons look down on a paid ministry, on pastors receiving money or financial support for their work as ministers. The Mormon church has taught that receiving money for preaching proves that they are in the employment of Satan himself. This may sound "nick picky" on Dr. Zacharias' words, but we have to look at this from an average Mormon's perspective.
He said that Jesus provides mediation for us through the cross and crucifixion. He talked about Matthew 16:13-20, where Jesus asked Peter, "Who do men say that I, the Son of man, am?" Jesus asked also, "Who do you say that I am?" Yet Dr. Zacharias failed to explain who Jesus of the Bible truly is, compared to the Jesus of Mormonism.
Dr. Zacharias said that that "Jesus provides History". He did not explain much about this topic. Dr. Zacharias said that "Jesus is the Disclosure of Reality." He said, "We gain unity in diversity." He also said "God in the beginning is as relationship." The way he said (it seemed to me, but I may be wrong), that it may cause an average Mormon to think that he agreed with Mormonism that that God has not always existed as God. Dr. Zacharias stated that "Christ is the embodiment of the Idea." Then he talked about the book, "The DeVinci Code". It could have been an opportunity for Dr. Zacharias to expound on the claims of the Mormon Church that Jesus was married, and had several wives and that he had children, because, as you may know, "The De Vinci Code" presents Jesus as having a sexual relationship with Mary Magdalene and having a child by her. But he did not make "a Mormon-connection" in this matter either. He then continued to speak of Rev. 5.
After that Dr. Zacharias spoke of "Jesus' the triumph over the grave." He spoke of John 20, and said that Jesus knows your name. He also used the term our "Heavenly Father". As many know, the Mormon Church speaks of God as our Heavenly Father, because they teach that God is our literal Father, and that all humans are children of God and his wives, from the pre-existence. I felt that when he used the term, "Heavenly Father", it further solidified to the average Mormon that there are no differences between Christianity and Mormonism.